TiredSoul

I wasn’t that far off on the annual
http://www.dugosh.com/annual-aircraft-inspections

Look what these airplanes generally go for and ask yourself why this one is $15k
https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?make=CESSNA&model_group=CESSNA+150+SERIES&s-type=aircraft

dera

141 stuff has nothing to do with plane ownership. Completely different environment.

Do your research, join the type clubs, be active, and don't place any value on your time. That's a huge thing. You'll spend A LOT of your time, or you'll spend a lot of your money.

I'll give a few examples: I bought a mint 150M, during our first service we found out that a previous owner had used incorrect parts on the nosewheel assembly. The nut and ferrules weren't correct for the plane.

Cessna part prices are hilarious. The nut was around $200, and ferrules were $600, each.

I'm not kidding.

Cessna Part No. 0442143-1 Ferrule - General Inventory - Air Power, Inc.

It took a while, but I found all three parts for $25, as new.

So, a "service center" would've quoted this for around $1800. I got it fixed for $150, we overhauled the nosewheel at the same time.

I upgraded my Cessna ARC to a TKM MX300 for $100. I fixed my glideslope for $50 ($25 in parts for a new receiver, $25 for my mechanic to swap it). It took me probably 3-4 days to find the parts and figure out what was wrong. As an owner, you can't set a price on that.

But then, once, I was raped for $2000 for two items I didn't want nor need when I was AOG out of base. That's just how it is. The more you fly, the more hours you can divide those unexpected costs over.

For instruction - I paid $50/hr for someone with more type ratings and real world experience than I knew what to do with. Do your homework, there's plenty of useless numbnuts, but there are those older guys who just like to teach. I found one. Not easy to find. Ask around.

Find a _GOOD_ mechanic. Your mechanic will determine what your ownership experience will be like. I had an amazing one. I got lucky. Again - ask around.
My mechanic, I gave him a list of squawks, every little one, and told him to fix it all. You need to trust your mechanic like that. My zero-squawk maintenance cost me around $10 an hour. If I operated it like a 141 school, it would've been 3-4 times more.

dera

"that far off". Almost 40% off is pretty damn far.

Most 150 annual prices are 600-800 for the good ones.
$15k 150 can be a great buy, or a total trainwreck.

Most good ones are $17-22k range. I sold mine for top of that and it was a late '76 /G with 300 hour engine and zero squawks.

15k is realistic for a flyable one.

PT6 Flyer

We had a joke at my old flight school. If you want to buy a light twin, it will cost you $40,000. If you buy one for $20,000, guess what -- you will pay $20,000 to fix it up.

wyomingpilot1

thanks everyone who responded.

Still researching here and trying to make a budget. Say, if I train for a PPL at the 141 school with their plane and under part 141 regs, is there a required minimum amount of hours of ground instruction in such programs? Basically asking if it is possible to self-study.

IDIOTPILOT

In general, yes you’ll have to go through their approved curriculum to include ground training.

Most students still need to self study way beyond this.

TiredSoul

This is kind of hard to explain without talking in person as we can talk about this for hours but here we go:

The school is Part 141 certified but that does not mean every student needs to enroll into a Part 141 course of training.
My brain is rusty but I recall a 141 school needs at least 10 students with an 80% pass rate in 2 years to maintain their 141 status.
So not all need to be 141 unless it’s a rural place and they don’t have a lot of customers come through the door.
It’s not unusual for a 141 school to bump you off a 141 course and finish you under Part 61 if you’re struggling and you may put a ding in their pass rate.

Example:
You’re struggling during your Private and the school decides to have you fly an additional 5 hrs solo ( difference between 141 and 61 reqs) before sending you up for a check ride.

Quick little calculation here:
Let’s say airplane is $150 and CFI is $50 ( just for easy numbers).
Hour dual is $200
Hour ground is $50
You can do 4hrs ground for every hour of dual.
A good instructor will not let you up in the airplane if you don’t understand it on the ground first.
Do not underestimate the power of groundschool. This is where an instructor really shines.
If they do an extra 20 hrs of ground school but save you 6 hrs of dual flight time you are keeping money in your pocket.

In your situation I would probably recommend you do the following:

Private part 61 as there is the least amount of difference with 141 which actually robs you of 5 hrs solo but nothing changes in the time it takes you to learn. Still do the ground school with their CFI’s as you can’t teach yourself how to fly. Yes you can study regulations and meteorology by yourself but you can’t dully learn a maneuver from a book.
Your PPL training will allow you to make an educated decision if you want to do your IR with them and with which instructor.
You are the customer, you can request a particular CFI that you just have a good connection with.


Instrument rating Part 141 as this allows you to start right after your ppl without having to do the 50hrs XC requirement first.
For your total time you still need the 50 but I’ll come back to that.
Do not skimp on your instrument rating as this is a skill which does not come natural and will certainly kill you if disrespected.

Private and IR in the pocket with total around a 100hrs.
Now leave the school and find the cheapest airplaneyou can find which is still IFR certified/capable amd safe to fly and go build an additional 100hrs, all XC and most on an IFR flightplan and at least half of it at night. Take a buddy along and a view limiting device and log simulated intrument time also.
It’s not about how much you pay for the plane per se but how many columns you can fill in your logbook flying the same hour and spending the same amount.


Now at 200hrs TT go back to the school or find another and ask for them to combine your Conmercial SE with your CFI training.
There is no regulation that requires you fly your CPL SE check ride from the left seat. Learning the maneuvers and walking, talking and chewing gun at the same time will save you about 20-25 hrs of dual flying which is about $5000 depending on the airplane.
Notify the examiner beforehand that you will be flying from the right seat and that you are close to your CFI check ride and if he can give you any hints and tips after you pass your CPL.
Treat the flying part as if it’s a CFI initial check ride.

That is about as much money as I can save you.
I’ll leave you with the following which is something that I would ask prospective customers:

School A the airplane is $100/hr and school B the airplane is $200/hr and instruction at both places is $50/hr.

School A does a Private in average 90 hrs and school B does a Private in average 45 hrs.

Which one is the better school to go to?
It’s not all about how much it costs it’s more about the value for the money.

wyomingpilot1

What exactly would be the benefit of doing PPL under part 61 and hiring their instructors for ground school as you described? What would make this different from taking the 141 program?

Also one more question how come there are scores of accounts on the internet of flight training from 0 - CFI costing 60-100k? When I talk to the chief CFI at the local flight school and add up their numbers (which they do not seem to skimp on- they quote PPL at 60 hours rental for instance) I get closer to 40k with possibility of being around 30k with divine providence or extreme frugality playing a role. Am I just looking at very economical flight school or being hopelessly optimistic that I could start taking pilot's work after 30-40k?

thanks again!

TiredSoul

Part 61. - 40 hrs of which 10 solo
Part 141 - 35 hrs of which 5 solo

Part 61 - use of an approved syllabus is recommended
Part 141 - use of an approved syllabus is mandatory

141 therefore doesn’t give you a whole lot of flexibility if you struggle as a student. Instructor can’t say hey this ain’t working something is not clicking let’s do another lesson and come back to this later.
141 forces you to repeat and repeat and repeat a lesson as you cannot do lessons out of sequence.

Example:
Student struggles with landings.
Now instead of just repeating the same ad nauseum under Part 61 the instructor is free to get some other dual requirements out of the way such as the 3 hr instrument, 3 hr night and the dual cross country flights without frustrating the efforts and keeping the student motivated.
People don’t learn the same skills at the same pace.
I’ve had students that soloed early and I’ve had students that soloed at 30hrs and they still both finished at 45hrs.
You can only do that under Part 61.

YOU NEED FORMAL GROUND SCHOOL

What you need to understand stand is that PPL and IR and CPL have overlapping knowledge areas such as regulations, weather and airspace just to name a couple.
If you don’t learn it right during Private you’ll pay (again) later in the process.
There’s saving money and selling yourself short.

The advantage of 141 is that you can start your IR right after your PPL and you can do the required time building on an IFR flight plan later which makes it more valuable time. It also much safer at night.

I’m going to use some rounded up numbers
100 % Part 61:
50 hrs PPL
50 hrs XC time building
50 hrs IR
50 hrs IFR XC timebuilding
50 hrs dual for CPL and CFI
250 hrs TT

100 % 141
50hrs PPL
50hrs IR
120 hrs CPL course which is mostly dual
This has a metric ton more dual instruction and doesn’t allow you the flexibility in the time building and combining lessons.

The problem here is that I’m trying to explain something that requires knowledge of 61/141 syllabus and regulations to understand.
Technically 141 requires only 35hrs for the Instrument rating but I’ve NEVER had a student finish it in 35hrs and both KNOW and UNDERSTAND what they were doing.
I worked for a very good school and our average for the IR was 42hrs.
Now you also have to consider start up and taxi and travel time to a practice area and vicinity of airports that have the approaches that you need to practice and so on.
Nearest airport that had an ILS approach was 30 miles away which is 15 min flying time each way.
Now you try and use this time in a valuable manner but Part 141 lessons do not assume or include “travel time”.
Lessons calls for an hour.
Well yes but you’ve been #5 for take off and they’re using a different runway and that adds time to fly the instrument approaches the lesson calls for.
Makes any sense?
This Conmercial syllabus has 110hrs dual instruction. Schools have tos tuck to their syllabus like glue and will be penalized if they deviate:

http://skybnd.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Commercial1.pdf

You can wring a ton more useful experience out of a hybrid 61-141-61 program.

What I’m going to ask you to do is talk with an Instructor that understands this.
Now I’m going to make you an offer you can’t refuse.
If you can’t find anybody to explain it to you then send me a PM and I will call you and talk to you.

wyomingpilot1

Thanks for the offer! I will try to find someone who can explain that at the flight school, the CFI I spoke with didnt offer so many specifics, all she has to say is that 141 is better for every reason. I'm just trying to make a budget given their rates.