Logging Pic Question
 

My brother and I are both CFI/CFII/MEI and anytime we go up to fly together we have been both logging PIC because one or the other is always the flight instuctor. Is this against FARs or is it ok. I was reading through the forums and some people said that the FAA frowns upon this. Does it say anywhere in the FARs that you cant do this? To me it seems legit because we are always teaching each other or reviewing something. Thanks for your help! :)

From what I understand, it is legit as long as one of you is logging Dual Given and the other is logging Dual Recieved, along with the PIC time.

Bingo. You can always be on the recieving end of instruction as well as giving it, and log PIC in both positions assuming you are appropriately rated for that aircraft and operation.

Thanks everyone, that makes me feel better. I got worried that all this time I was logging was wrong. If anyone else has anything to add please let me know

Um, NO! Sorry, but the other guys are wrong on this. The regs don't clearly say that you can't log dual whenever you want, but the FAA has interpreted that the logging of dual is intended for actual training purposes, such as:

- Training towards a certificate/rating/endorsement
- Currency (BFR/IPC)
- Aircraft FAM flight
- Area/route FAM flight

The key to all of these is that there is reasonable ending point...ie eventually the student is trained and no more dual is required. You could probably get away with giving lots of dual to a pilot who needs a babysitter due to insurance or even personal safety concerns, but the big red flag here is two cfi's giving EACH OTHER repetive dual on an ongoing basis. No legit training is occuring here...if you're qualified to GIVE dual on the first leg, you obviously don't need dual-received on the return leg!

Safety pilot is the way to do shared time-building. Legally this is perfectly acceptable, although some airlines don't give you full credit for SP time or dual-received.

Thanks for that more info. I just cant see how if it doesnt state it in the FARs how does the FAA make an "interpretation" and then expect everyone to know about it. Is that in writing somewhere? thanks

I believe this has been covered by an FAA written legal opinion.

There are numerous grey areas in the FAR's which are subject to interpretation. The FAR's at face value are kind of like Cliff's Notes...they cover the basic structure, but don't fill in all of the details. Since these are administrative regulations, not actual laws, the FAA can make their own interpretations which normally hold up in court. There are many, many such grey areas that are addressed in Advisory Circulars (such as the notorious "Holding Out" AC) or in FAA written legal opinions. Rule interpretation can also be solidly established by case law where someone appeals an FAA regulatory action, and the NTSB finds in favor of the FAA...that effectively makes the FAA interpretation solid and binding for anyone else in the future.

In this case I agree with the FAA in that dual-given is obviously intended for training purposes, not to allow time building. It really is not unreasonable to exclude activities which obviously have no training purpose from being logged as flight instruction. Especially since the FAA openly allows Safety Pilot time to be used for time building purposes.

I agree with Rick. But 14 CFR Part 61 does spell this out…you just have to follow the trail in the various sections to the answer.

14 CFR Part 61.51(e) Logging pilot-in-command time…(3) An authorized instructor may log as pilot-in-command time all flight time while acting as an authorized instructor.

The key words are "authorized instructor".

14 CFR Part 61.1 Applicability and definitions…(b)(2) Authorized Instructor means - …(ii) A person who holds a current flight instructor certificate issued under part 61 this chapter when conducting ground training or flight training in accordance with the privileges and limitations of his or her flight instructor certificate;…

The key words in this section are "…flight training in accordance with the privileges and limitations…"

Flight instructor privileges are detailed in Part 61.193 Flight instructor privileges. "A person who holds a flight instructor certificate is authorized within the limitations of that person's flight instructor certificate and ratings to give training and endorsements that are required for and relate to:
(a) a student pilot certificate;
(b) a pilot certificate;
(c) a flight instructor certificate;
(d) a ground instructor certificate;
(e) an aircraft rating;
(f) an instrument rating;
(g) a flight review, operating privilege, or recency of experience requirement of this part;
(h) a practical test; and
(i) a knowledge test."

You may log PIC time as a flight instructor when providing flight training for the above functions.

If the reason for the flight is outside of the above list then Rick's suggestion of using the provisions of part 91.109 for a "safety pilot" is a good one.

Thanks a lot for the clarification! That helps alot. So if we are just flying around for fun we shouldnt log dual recieved/dual given but if we go up to specifically review topics or practice IFR would that be ok to log like that

It doesn't matter at all. Just log it. The FAA is so completely full of crap that you could ask 5 inspectors and get 5 different answers. If it make you feel better, ask a few of them. When you get the answer you like, get his card (he will be glad to give you one) and save it.