ATP Mins, Captain Upgrades, and not meeting the mins
04-29-2007, 05:59 PM
#1
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ATP Mins, Captain Upgrades, and not meeting the mins
Sec. 61.159 Aeronautical experience: Airplane Category rating.
(a) A person who is applying for an airline transport pilot certificate with an airplane category and class rating must have at least 1,500 hours of total time as a pilot that includes at least:
(a) A person who is applying for an airline transport pilot certificate with an airplane category and class rating must have at least 1,500 hours of total time as a pilot that includes at least:
(1) 500 hours of cross-country flight time.
(2) 100 hours of night flight time.
(3) 75 hours of instrument flight time, in actual or simulated instrument conditions:
(i) An applicant may not receive credit for more than a total of 25 hours of simulated instrument time in a flight simulator or flight training device.
(ii) A maximum of 50 hours of training in a flight simulator or flight training device may be credited toward the instrument flight time requirements of paragraph (a)(3) if the training was accomplished in a course conducted by a training center certificated under part 142.
(4) 250 hours of flight time in an airplane as a pilot in command, or as second in command performing the duties and functions of a pilot in command while under the supervision of a pilot in command or any combination thereof, which includes at least:
(i) 100 hours of cross-country flight time ; and
(ii) 25 hours of night flight time.
(5) Not more than 100 hours of the total aeronautical experience requirements of paragraph (a) of this section may be obtained in a flight simulator or flight training device that represents an airplane, provided this aeronautical experience was obtained in an approved course conducted by a training center certificated under part 142.
(2) 100 hours of night flight time.
(3) 75 hours of instrument flight time, in actual or simulated instrument conditions:
(i) An applicant may not receive credit for more than a total of 25 hours of simulated instrument time in a flight simulator or flight training device.
(ii) A maximum of 50 hours of training in a flight simulator or flight training device may be credited toward the instrument flight time requirements of paragraph (a)(3) if the training was accomplished in a course conducted by a training center certificated under part 142.
(4) 250 hours of flight time in an airplane as a pilot in command, or as second in command performing the duties and functions of a pilot in command while under the supervision of a pilot in command or any combination thereof, which includes at least:
(i) 100 hours of cross-country flight time ; and
(ii) 25 hours of night flight time.
(5) Not more than 100 hours of the total aeronautical experience requirements of paragraph (a) of this section may be obtained in a flight simulator or flight training device that represents an airplane, provided this aeronautical experience was obtained in an approved course conducted by a training center certificated under part 142.
An FO at a regional meets the regional's upgrade requirements...but doesn't meet ATP mins. Is that FO upgraded? And how?
I've heard various things from 121 carriers get waivers on time to these same FO's having to build the necessary time on the side. So which one is it or is it something entirely different? Thanks
04-30-2007, 09:21 AM
#2
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Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: 737/FO
Posts: 423
Originally Posted by oldveedubs
I've asked several different people, browsed this forum, checked online using various different sources, the FARs, and this question still gets me.
An FO at a regional meets the regional's upgrade requirements...but doesn't meet ATP mins. Is that FO upgraded? And how?
I've heard various things from 121 carriers get waivers on time to these same FO's having to build the necessary time on the side. So which one is it or is it something entirely different? Thanks
An FO at a regional meets the regional's upgrade requirements...but doesn't meet ATP mins. Is that FO upgraded? And how?
I've heard various things from 121 carriers get waivers on time to these same FO's having to build the necessary time on the side. So which one is it or is it something entirely different? Thanks
04-30-2007, 09:55 AM
#3
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Waiver would be in reference to a part 121 training program. Think about it like Part 141 compared to part 61. Part 141 allows a pvt cert at 35hrs instead of 40. That same idea with part 121.
I'm sorry if I'm beating a dead horse...but I haven't gotten a solid answer from anyone. Thanks
I'm sorry if I'm beating a dead horse...but I haven't gotten a solid answer from anyone. Thanks
04-30-2007, 10:53 AM
#5
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Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Spartan
Posts: 3,652
Originally Posted by oldveedubs
I've asked several different people, browsed this forum, checked online using various different sources, the FARs, and this question still gets me.
An FO at a regional meets the regional's upgrade requirements...but doesn't meet ATP mins. Is that FO upgraded? And how?
I've heard various things from 121 carriers get waivers on time to these same FO's having to build the necessary time on the side. So which one is it or is it something entirely different? Thanks
An FO at a regional meets the regional's upgrade requirements...but doesn't meet ATP mins. Is that FO upgraded? And how?
I've heard various things from 121 carriers get waivers on time to these same FO's having to build the necessary time on the side. So which one is it or is it something entirely different? Thanks
Those numbers aren't very high...do you think someone should be a captain if they don't meet those mins? I don't!
04-30-2007, 06:24 PM
#7
Chief Jeppesen Updater
Joined APC: Oct 2005
Position: Executive Transport Driver
Posts: 3,080
I know of no carriers that have "waivers" to allow ATP applicants to obtain their certificate without having the requisite experience. (Show me in the regulations where such a waiver is permitted). Many have significantly higher minimums for insurance.
If you reach the point where your seniority will allow upgrade, but you don't have the necessary time, you can't be awarded a slot and therefore stay an FO (and at FO pay at most companies). Junior pilots that have the time will upgrade ahead of you. (Such as at unionized companies where they are hiring street captains).
When you get the time, you upgrade into the next available slot and bump the junior guy down a notch on the captain seniority list. If there isn't an available slot, you're SOL and have junior captains flying in the left seat when you're stuck in the right seat.
If you reach the point where your seniority will allow upgrade, but you don't have the necessary time, you can't be awarded a slot and therefore stay an FO (and at FO pay at most companies). Junior pilots that have the time will upgrade ahead of you. (Such as at unionized companies where they are hiring street captains).
When you get the time, you upgrade into the next available slot and bump the junior guy down a notch on the captain seniority list. If there isn't an available slot, you're SOL and have junior captains flying in the left seat when you're stuck in the right seat.
05-09-2007, 06:32 PM
#9
New Hire
Joined APC: May 2007
Posts: 6
You may have answered this question but what are the lowest hours required that any of you have seen in order to sit right seat for any US regional carrier? Are the mins higher for sitting right seat in corporate jets? In other words, I really wouldn't want to spend much time being an instructor and I want a goal to have in which I can quit being an IP and sit right seat for someone. Just want to get an idea of how long I would have to spend in a small prop job before upgrading.
05-09-2007, 06:47 PM
#10
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There are no waivers for ATP mins. Period.
Most airlines require their captains to have more than the 1500 hours required for an ATP (for good reason). Typically this is 2500-3500 with 1000 hours of airline experience. But because this is a company requirement, not an FAA regulatory requirement, it can be waived if they are short-handed. Unscruplulous airlines (like mesa) may waive it down to 1500 hours.
The lowest legal mins for right seat in Airline, 135, and part 91 operations is the same: A commercial ticket. This could mean 190 hours for someone who attended a 141 training course
Most companies have higher self-imposed mins, but a few will hire wet commercials.
Most airlines require their captains to have more than the 1500 hours required for an ATP (for good reason). Typically this is 2500-3500 with 1000 hours of airline experience. But because this is a company requirement, not an FAA regulatory requirement, it can be waived if they are short-handed. Unscruplulous airlines (like mesa) may waive it down to 1500 hours.
The lowest legal mins for right seat in Airline, 135, and part 91 operations is the same: A commercial ticket. This could mean 190 hours for someone who attended a 141 training course
Most companies have higher self-imposed mins, but a few will hire wet commercials.
