timebuilding
 

been in these forums a lot the past couple days.. started a war in one of them, but now looking for a little assistance..as most of you guys have read, im working on some timebuilding on my way up to a commercial ticket.. intention is to get my comms, then multi instrument, and then go to Ari-Ben aviation in Florida for 100 hrs in a Dutchess for about $7K... $7K is a lot of spend, but my thinking is where else can i get twin time for 70 bucks an hour..
my question is this: does anyone here on APC either own an aircraft or know anyone kind enough to let someone sit right seat on a trip in either a complex single (mooney, arrow, etc.) or multiengine in the central NJ (my home) or northeastern connecticut (school) areas? i am trying to find the most efficient way to get all this done without burning my pockets toooo much... all advice is welcome.. thank you

Try looking around TTN at night and see what check haulers are flying in, than ask the pilot if you can ride with them. Make sure you check to see when he's coming back :D BTW are you near RBV?? I live in the area, I couldn't afford to now on a RJ Capts pay :eek: Good luck

Be careful of what airplanes you fly..... there are examiners that refuse to fly some aircraft. I refuse to mention flight school names, but let's be honest with ourselves and note safety versus prices.
Jason

seneca/dutchess
 

i have heard of some pilots complain that the dutchess doesnt climb on one engine, which obviously isnt good...
what are the aircraft you are speaking of?
i have looked into timebuilding with the dutchess at Ari-Ben in Florida and then looked at a Seneca a little closer to home..
please advise

Investors
 

UConn,

Consider placing an AD and building a group of investors. You could buy a plane and fly it for cost. I did just that years ago. Three of us bought an Apache and put several hundred hours on it for cheap cheap. In the end our costs were around $25/hour. I even broke even since we sold time in it. I was the only MEI at the time.

I wouldn't worry about single engine climb performance. Most piston twins can't really climb on one engine when fully loaded. Even turbine airliners struggle on one when fully loaded. Most of the time when you are training the plane only has two dudes and half tanks, so you have performance to spare. The bottom line still is that you are four times more likely to die from an engine loss in a twin over a single. All of them are death traps.

SkyHigh

loss rates in twins
 

Skyhigh,

For the novice with no twin experience / knowledge...Why the high death / loss rate w/ engine failure in a twin? Lack of training / people getting in over their head? Just curious...


QB,
Check on-line for c152 for sale..I saw one a few weeks ago for less than 20K...

V/r,
LA

placing an ad
 

i didnt see who it was that said to buy an aircraft and then rent it out etc... the first problem with that is that im only 21 years old and i dont nearly have the money to just up and go buy a plane, despite my desire to... secondly, in my neck of the woods, not many people are interested in the insurance on the plane, let alone finding the pilots that would want to go in on such a project... i want to purchase a dutchess from controller.com for around 120K, but to make it reasonable for those involved, i would need to get around 10-12 guys just for the aircraft, let alone the fuel and maintenance costs.. maintenance alone if i were to rent the plane out would include the 100-hour and an annual, so it gets pricey in the end...
the intention of my original post was to see if anyone already had a situation like the one you said to start myself.. i would join their group and pay for the hours as if i were renting the plane...
thanks

Apache
 

UConn,

You can still buy an Apache for 35-50K. If four of you go in on it that would bring the price down. The Apache can get an auto gas STC if you stick with 160 HP engines. Don't get insurance. You probably can't get it anyway with low time. Another option is to buy the time from Alpine Air or from of the other time selling companies. I am sure that with the contacts that you are making at the gas pump that before you know it locals will be offering to take you along or asking if you wouldn't mind being a co-pilot on the citation since the regular guy is sick, opportunities like that will come along.

SkyHigh

Aztec/Apache
 

We have an Aztec here that burns about 21 gph in cruise if you baby it... but if you pull the throttles back even further then you really really burn less fuel. We have investors in our aircraft that went in on it for 100k total.... they foot the entire bill, as long as I can make it make money. So far the aircraft has been a break even deal. Once we get 135 certified (the aircraft itself is 135, but we are not yet) we will be making money. Not a lot, but at least it's on the plus side of the equation... while I log PIC Multi time and possibly some IFR while i'm at it. So that will be a win-win situation, but the only problem is that the investors must dump another 20k into the aircraft for insurance (NOW insurance is required!) and maint. So your best bet IS to buy into an aircraft, OR buy a 150/152 and rent it out while doing instruction in it. Get it IFR certified and baby you've got a money/time building machine! Maybe more time than money, but at least you get to keep the rent $$$ at the end of the day. :cool: I wish the best to you. Good luck... I wouldn't recommend a duchess over a 6/10 rated 152. Best of luck, Jason

Keep in mind...when you buy a plane, you also have to factor in fixed monthly expenses, and have money in the bank for those "surprise" annual inspection costs and airworthiness directives. To hangar a plane and protect your resale, you're looking at at least $200/mo, insurance on a twin will be very high if you can get it with your time, gas alone is over $3.00/gallon (probably at least $60/hr in a twin), engine overhauls are over $12,000 a side, and an expensive AD or annual can run in the thousands. If the gas alone costs that much, how much money is the FBO putting into maintaining the A/C for $70/hr? Also, the more people you get involved in a shared-ownership agreement, the more likely you are to have disputes...financial and otherwise. I just did the same cost/benefit analysis myself in the past couple of years, and I decided it just wasn't worth it financially.

I would highly recommend getting your multi-engine instructor rating and building multi time that way. You should be able to do it for about $3,000, and the experience you will gain will far outway the experience you would gain flying around from one $100 hamburger joint to another.

Flyboymatthew
 

MEI Experiences:

"I would highly recommend getting your multi-engine instructor rating and building multi time that way. You should be able to do it for about $3,000, and the experience you will gain will far out way the experience you would gain flying around from one $100 hamburger joint to another." Flyboymatthew

An early death might be one of the experiences you get as a MEI, or you might enjoy growing old while waiting your turn for the next multi student. I have done both and highly recommend buying your own plane if you have the opportunity. Lots of fun. Don't get insurance. Buy gas at ARCO. Maintain the plane yourself if you have some basic mechanical skills. (Always refer to the AC regarding owner maintenance rules and regulations).

SkyHigh

the dutchess and most other light twins wont be able to climb on one engine especially in warm florida weather. They, unlike, part 121 and 135 operations are not required to have climb performance on one engine. Normally with the loss of one engine (i fly out of BLM in NJ and also HWV on Long Island a lot) you may be able to maintain altitiude but climbing will be limited to 100 - 200 fpm at best. most of my light twin time is a seminole so you are looking at 180hp each side. but with one engine gone you lose 50 % of your Thrust but 80% of your performance. you have a lot more drag out there. soo flying a light twin although seems a lot "safer" to the common person isnt a whole lot better. best of luck to you. hope i was a little bit of help

thrust vs performance
 

...50% thrust lost but 80% performance hit.I understand the 50% thrust lost, don't get the performance hit. Please explain...Bettter yet, point me to the books and I'll educate myself- probably retain the info longer and if i have questions I'll ask...

Thanks,
LA

Twin climb performance
 

The old joke:

Q. Why do twins have two engines?
A. cause they don't fly worth a crap on one.

Of course a duchess will fly on one. It is important to keep the weight down for a single training flight. Half tanks and no pax should be enough to give safe single engine climb performance.

80%
 

Without getting too technical, it has to do with the increase in drag from having your rudder and other controls deflected to maintain straight and level and the loss of the accellerated airflow over the wing. If you look at performance data for nearly every piston twin made the loss will be very close to 80%.

if you can get your hand on the Jeppesen multi manual... it does a pretty good job. pretty much any multi engine training book can explain it. you wont really have to get to technical on your Comm multi checkride but they will ask you to for your mei. Your mei is one of the best ways to build multi time ... in jersey and new york there are quite a few multi students here and there. instructing part 61 is tougher but you can try and get into a part 141 school and there will be more instrument students and multi students... those are the best students to have as they keep your instrument skills sharp while keeping multi aerodynamics fresh in your mind. hope i was a little help.

Lease Back
 

I baught a IFR C-172 and put very little of my own money into it. I lease it back to a flight school. It pays for itself and I fly it almost as much as I want. I just finished my instrument ticket in it. All the money that I recieve from the rental goes into its own account and it pays all the maint. costs, loan, insurance, fuel, etc. and what's left over goes towards the next engine overhaul. Great cross-country plane.....:)

C-172
 

C-172 is just a safe/fun/go characteristics plane to fly...Of course, I haven't flown anything else- but the F-15, F-22 here at Langley look like they would be fun to fly around in as well...

OrionFE, where did you educated yourself on buying a plane? I've seen some good c-152 on-line and think about getting one in a few years to fly around in...

Thanks,
LA

Buying a plane....
 

My buddy had a C-172 that he leased back and was using it to build time in. He as well, put very little money into it and it was paying for itself. He also, got a couple of traffic contracts that he used it for and they paid pretty well. So I started looking. I found mine and it was in great shape (Avionics needed updating). It listed for $38K, booked at about $38.7K, and I offerd $34K. We settled for $35K.

I found a Hurricane Damaged (very little damage) same year C-172 with a fresh engine and a IFR Certified GPS. I bid on it at a auction and picked it up for spare parts (engine, instruments, etc.) and I am selling it off part by part.

Bottom line, the airplane breaks even and I fly it (build time) for free. I just finished my Instrument and I am working on my Commercial. My buddy is selling his ( he is FO on a RJ) as he doesn't fly it anymore. We are considering picking up a cheap twin (C-310) so I can build multi time in and maybe we can haul frieght and/or do some advanced intructing in it.

I see C-152's all the time in the low $20K's.:)

C-152
 

C-152 is a good plane , i have a good 10 hours in one...:-) Its just too small for two average size people...

-LA

Is insurance required for private ownership?

Ari-Ben Aviator advice
 

I'm just going to assume that buying your own plane is not an option for you. I went to Ari-Ben Aviator a little over a year ago to build muti time. Here is my experience with them:
We called and signed up for their time building program in July 2004. My friend and I drove down there in August in good spirits looking forward to some quality flying. When we arrived they had no record of us calling and did not have us on the schedule at all.
Ari is the son of the owner and he lied to us about everything on the phone. He told us we'd be on the schedule right away just to get our money. We waited in for an entire week before we even got our first flight. Luckily we had a friend to stay with or that would have cost us about $500 extra in hotel costs.
When we finally did get flying, we did a 5 hour checkout with an instructor which they state right on their website costs $300. They charged us almost $800 each for it. Then they gave us some aircraft manuals and never told us they were charging us for them. They tried to sneak them onto our account for an additional $42 each. We forced them to refund one set of manuals since we could share them.
Once we started flying, we really did get it done fast (about 6-8 hours per night). We were only allowed to fly at night and they will only let you refuel at their base unless you want to pay for fuel yourself. That meant we could not go more than 2.5 hours away otherwise we'd have to pay for fuel ourselves.
Also their airplanes are so poorly maintained that any FAA inspector would have found them un-airworthy. They all had INOP oil temp and oil press gauges. Some had INOP carb heat. Only one of them had a working Wx radar installed like it says on their website and that one was reserved for checkrides. Their airplanes were so illegal to fly that I was scared I might get ramp checked every time. Looking back, I should not have flown them but I guess I was naive and believed the lies they told us.
Once they get you flying, you will get it done quickly. If you don't mind flying poorly maintained aircraft that are probably not airworthy, then you can get a good price on multi-engine time. Whatever you do, don't go to a "pay for training" airline unless you want to be blacklisted in the industry.

When you get 21 gallons per hour with the Aztec, what is the speed and what is your range? I am looking for a range of 1,400 or 1,500. Fast would be nice too, but range and useful load is more important. The 2000 # useful load of an Aztec looked good as it still had room for passengers with full fuel. i have a C206 that carries everything but would like to go farther.

They are very roomy and solid airplanes, often called the "AzTruck". Nothing else in their class has the roominiess. I don't have my Aztec manuals handy, but IIRC it can do 160Kts at a moderate power setting, and should go 700+ NM. Note: I think at least some of them have AS indicators calibrated in mph?

I don't think it could get to 1500 nm at any kind of speed, if at all.

There are a lot of variants, so you would have to look at the details of the one in question to be sure.

The Turbo Aztec is a screamer

I also heard that with the Aztec there is a saying that "if it will fit through the door it will carry it" Good airplane

25gph@170ktas
 

That is pretty much true. I have hauled an Archer II engine in it with full fuel - and the WB checked out just fine. You can carry 6 NORMAL sized pax (bein 170+each), baggage, and full fuel, no problem, maybe shift some pax around to make it stay inside the for/aft but other than that, no problem. My particular aircraft has the MetCo speedmod with 24gal per side extentions. Basically if I run it at 25GPH@8500' I should see around 170-177KTAS depending on how aft I load the AC - those numbers are at max gross too, 5200LBS! Also, at 170KTAS and 25gph, 185gal usable now you can do the math for either vfr, ifr reserves. About 1200NM which is very nice! I can ALLLLLMOST make it to maine without a fuel stop from KFPR. And if I get a fuel stop I could go well into canada without any problem. I have gone KFPR to outside of Dallas non-stop. Tall order for a long hauler. My opinion is the Az-Truck is the no-brainer for GA/135/etc - FOR WHAT IT IS.
My .04c
Jason

Economical Twin Engine
 

Currently own a Cessna 150 IFR equipped. I am looking down the road to purchase a twin engine plane to build time in...what is the most affordable and reliable twin engine avaliable?

Piper Apache or Twin Commanche are good choices.

DIDO! I completely agree! I just bought a Seneca I and it's going to end up costing me more than an older Aztec or "newer" (relatively) Apache would have. I just got JPI digital engine monitoring and it showed only 14GPH on the Seneca while at 45% power and about 140 knots true... not bad I suppose. At 18 GPH, though, I was doing 165 knots. The only scary part about the Seneca is that it has a hard time flying on one engine, where as the Aztec (E at least) had absolutely NO problem even at max gross weight. The Seneca is basically a controlled descent - to the scene of the crash. That's the funny part about it - people always boast "oh if you lose the other engine, it'll take you home and you call your mechanic". The reality with MOST twins (Aztec exempt, mostly at least) is when you lose an engine you look for a place to put it down, hopefully an airport. Be careful what you pick. Be sure to get ahold of some performance charts and make sure that when it's fully loaded it has at least 5000ft of service ceiling... Low pressure, max gross, hot day, high humidity (Florida, very often too!) and you are talking 3500ft density altitude! I have heard it on AWOS 100's of times a DA of over 3000ft. So beware and always have an escape plan!

Good luck with your airplane!