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Flaps or no Flaps, that is the question.

Old 10-09-2020, 09:59 AM
  #21  
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Fly it like you're going to court.

This is golden and should be on a neon sign above the door to the ramp in every flightschool.
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Old 10-09-2020, 05:52 PM
  #22  
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Originally Posted by TiredSoul View Post
Not in a a Cessna 172 you haven’t.
Under Part 141 you have to use an FAA approved syllabus.
What does the syllabus state?
Im assuming this is a pilot mill with lots of foreign students? Crank ‘em out and send them home?
These skills are learned during Private then adapted during IR.
Uh...in my 172 I have. Many times.
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Old 10-09-2020, 06:01 PM
  #23  
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Teach them to land clean. The H-bracket on the 172 firewall will thank you, especially if you have two pilots, no ballast and an impatient student. The airplane handles better with the additonal speed. Everything they're going to fly after the 172 is going to land faster anyway.

Your reluctance to add flaps is completely reasonable. All those flaps coming out at the bottom suggests unstable approach to a porpoise to a nose wheel landing to me. If the book calls for clean or full, you can't be wrong landing clean.
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Old 10-09-2020, 06:21 PM
  #24  
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You would lose in court if the school is in fact using an approved syllabus as others have stated and you deviated from the SOP no matter what you think might be safer. If you want to teach your own way - become a freelance instructor, until then - fly the school’s planes, teach the school’s students the way that they are paying you to fly and teach. Along those paths, if you think you have a better way of doing business, present it, let it go through the process, get yourself into a position where you have more influence or decision making power and enact changes.
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Old 10-19-2020, 10:35 AM
  #25  
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Originally Posted by USMCFLYR View Post
You would lose in court if the school is in fact using an approved syllabus as others have stated and you deviated from the SOP no matter what you think might be safer. If you want to teach your own way - become a freelance instructor, until then - fly the school’s planes, teach the school’s students the way that they are paying you to fly and teach. Along those paths, if you think you have a better way of doing business, present it, let it go through the process, get yourself into a position where you have more influence or decision making power and enact changes.

A syllabus is AFM/POH agnostic. Of course I teach the syllabus. However, after further conversing the SOP is conflict with the approved checklist.

So, which do you ignore? The SOP, which says approach and landing clean, or the checklist which says Flaps-Set, and Airspeed 65-70 knots?

The way I see it, one either changes the SOP, or changes the checklist. If I am Joe-pilot, I go with configuring the aircraft based on what's on the checklist.
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Old 10-19-2020, 11:47 AM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by ChinookDriver47 View Post
A syllabus is AFM/POH agnostic. Of course I teach the syllabus. However, after further conversing the SOP is conflict with the approved checklist.

So, which do you ignore? The SOP, which says approach and landing clean, or the checklist which says Flaps-Set, and Airspeed 65-70 knots?

The way I see it, one either changes the SOP, or changes the checklist. If I am Joe-pilot, I go with configuring the aircraft based on what's on the checklist.
Since things in the checklist can be changed - and the syllabus at a P141 school is signed off on by the POI (which should include your checklists) - I'd be more inclined to go with the syllabus as the controlling document.
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Old 10-19-2020, 04:29 PM
  #27  
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I’m sea lawyering here, but ‘flaps-set’ doesn’t necessarily mean ‘flaps-extended.’ Set could be retracted...so it could be interpreted as ‘flaps-as required.’
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Old 10-20-2020, 06:29 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by firefighterplt View Post
I’m sea lawyering here, but ‘flaps-set’ doesn’t necessarily mean ‘flaps-extended.’ Set could be retracted...so it could be interpreted as ‘flaps-as required.’
Very true.
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Old 10-20-2020, 02:33 PM
  #29  
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Every Cessna 172 I've flown can land with flaps in any setting desired. Just keep it clean. A legal pilot will have reviewed their performance manual and determined the safe margin for landing in that configuration. Additionally, if a safe landing cannot be assured perform a missed approach.
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Old 10-20-2020, 03:23 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by hydrostream View Post
Every Cessna 172 I've flown can land with flaps in any setting desired. Just keep it clean. A legal pilot will have reviewed their performance manual and determined the safe margin for landing in that configuration. Additionally, if a safe landing cannot be assured perform a missed approach.
Anyone who has ever had a Cessna 172 flap motor go out in full flap configuration (or even just pop a circuit breaker while you are otherwise busy) will tell you they would MUCH rather fly IFR approaches clean until landing is assured than have any possibility whatsoever of having to go missed approach with flaps out.

Ask me how I know...
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