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Old 01-23-2021, 05:11 AM   #1  
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Default Instructors failing Students

In aviation we know that the failure sticks with us for life. We are seeing the FAA going over the failures of the instructors in producing quality education. The low pass rates are an issue all across the country and even at some 141 locations. I’ve personally felt the sting of lack luster pushy instructors telling me I’m “ready” when I go over the material of sporty’s or King School and catch something I’m iffy on they push you along and say “you’re fine, I don’t even know that”. There has to be changes to this sticks with you for life model. Having a failure doesn’t mean you’re a bad pilot. You learn and improve but if you’re say stuck in a 141 college FTA and they fail you- that sticks with you forever. I’m not writing this to complain, I understand many will be critical and blanket say “you’re just bad” because arrogance is prevalent in this industry. We’re expected to use technology for safety except for during check-rides. We’re expected to study and teach ourselves the key facts using the respirated we have. The biggest pusher is the “trust your instructor” every DPE says and every airline pilot says it. No one considers that Joe CFI is a self focused tool only looking to get his ours and how he doesn’t have any failures so he’s headed to the big leagues. There has to be an attitude change from every level regarding failures in the industry. The PAVE checklist is stressed and pushed but ignored when you offer criticisms to local leaders for the aircraft the I took to my PPL checkride ball fluid was not full and prone to errors while attempting to fly coordinated making a failure in the steep turns that no one could fly in the aircraft when I asked them too. The uncoordinated flight effected many maneuvers. Did the flight with a different aircraft and passed with flying colors. This is a failure of the flight school. The ball is not required for day VFR but the instructors will say you’re being ridiculous.


There has to be a change in the industry with regards to how we treat failures. If a pilot has a failure cycle in his training in this incredibly easy industry. Look where the true failure lies with the instructors. A pilot should never fail a checkride if the instructor is competent and considerate. Sending a pilot and signing them off should be done only have reflect and the failure should go on the instructors record not the students record. This is an industry of leaders we have to lead the flight deck for hundreds of people. The current CFIs have no hesitation in sending people to a checkride even without the proper endorsements and proper knowledge. It doesn’t effect them, they’ll likely have to take the CFI refresher and just move on. Simple and easy no consequences for the safety that comes with this negligence. Those students will one day be flying bigger aircraft and every one of them needs to have the proper knowledge and techniques built into them from day one. We can’t expect them to make progress in their flight skill while only touching the yoke for 1 out of every 5 hours as a CFI to improve on their failure. But not only that but consider how that failure produces another failure technique will be passed down complacency is destroying respect for the flight instructors.




https://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/...ew-review.html
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Old 01-23-2021, 07:08 AM   #2  
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Wow, that’s a giant wall of text that I won’t be reading. Good luck with all of that.
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Old 01-23-2021, 08:32 AM   #3  
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There HAVE been changes, with several iterations of PRIA they've ensured that airlines have visibility into the failures, violations, incidents, and accident history of those they might employ as pilots. This all came about because in the past pilots with bad histories were able to keep getting hired, and keep crashing planes (as recently as about ten years ago). I think the government is happy with the current system. They're not interesting in catering the to entitled desires of a few people who were raised to think that all you have to do is show up, and there are no consequences to choices, failures, or successes.

The real problem is kids who expect everything will be spoon-fed, instructors who just want to get their time and move on, and flight schools which just want to see the production moving.

As a student (if you want a crack at legacy payscales someday) it is utterly incumbent on YOU to manage your own training...

1. Carefully research the type of program which will work best for you.
2. Carefully research schools and instructors. If in doubt, just walk away.
3. Carefully research DPEs. If in doubt, just say no.
4. You have to do the work. Not just "good enough", but go above and beyond in your preparation. Since GA checkrides are done in the real world, you need to have enough confidence and comfort level to deal with unexpected challenges from ATC, weather, traffic, etc. Airline checkrides are far more consistent, and are done in the sim, so you have to look forward to.

Early on try to find a mentor who you can bounce ideas off. Career advice from CFI's should be taken with a grain of salt, they're not airline pilots and may never be. Career advice from senior old airline CA's should be taken with a grain a salt... those Migs he nailed over Hanoi are not relevant to your career, and neither are his carrier landings or top-gun class rank. Ideally you'd get advice from a junior regional CA or a junior major FO (who did civilian training)... they're experienced enough to know the lay of the land but junior enough to still have relevant knowledge. If you're talking to a guy who filled out paper apps and went directly from a 19 seat turboprop to a legacy which no longer exists, his knowledge is probably dated.

Fundamental caution on attitude: It's not going to be good enough to "be able to do the job" The best jobs pay many hundreds of thousands per years, with 1/2 - 2/3 of the month off... that's going to be very competitive, and flying ability/history is only part of it. You have to strive to stand out head and shoulders above the rest of the pack... don't relax on your laurels until you finish probation at your career-destination airline.

If you're not striving for the top-tier, then sure go ahead and accumulate a few busts along the way. The regionals, fractionals, and maybe ULCC/ACMI will still have you. And there's the always the wild, wild west of 91/135.

Now with all that said, maybe flight training got a little loose during the recent boom years with all of the turnover and maybe the FAA needs to take a round turn on that. But as a student, that's even more reason to carefully manage your own training.
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Old 01-23-2021, 08:45 AM   #4  
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If there is a lesson here it would to understand your power as the customer moving forward.
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Old 01-23-2021, 08:45 AM   #5  
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"A pilot should never fail a checkride if the instructor is competent and considerate"

it is always someone else's' fault. Sigh.


OP - you don't think a low pass rate will affect a CFI?
You don't think a CFI sending students forward with incomplete training couldn't hurt the CFI's record?
Wrong on both accounts.
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Old 01-23-2021, 08:51 AM   #6  
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An awful lot of verbiage to wade through, OP, especially considering the poor spelling and grammar. So what’s the bottom line? What are you really asking for? A waiver? Or a favor?
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Old 01-23-2021, 08:54 AM   #7  
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Take responsibility for your life, career, etc. No one else will, despite the dominant contemporary social ideas.

A failure or two won’t be show stoppers. An attitude like the OP displays will be for the higher tiers.
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Old 01-23-2021, 12:24 PM   #8  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flightlessbirds View Post
Take responsibility for your life, career, etc. No one else will, despite the dominant contemporary social ideas.

A failure or two won’t be show stoppers. An attitude like the OP displays will be for the higher tiers.
If you read the OP's other posts, you'll see a theme. If it's not complaining about check ride busts or instructors, it's whining about how college degrees are worthless and "every United pilot" he knows doesn't have one.

Lesson learned- Don't quit your $80K a year job to begin full time flight training when you haven't logged an hour outside of a discovery flight. Then you rack a bunch of busts and blame the system where all the majors aren't blowing up your phone daily with job offers.

For the record, I can do coordinated steep turns all day just by using my feet and looking outside while keeping the nose on the horizon. Venmo me $20 and I'll send you a video.
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Old 01-24-2021, 08:53 PM   #9  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickair7777 View Post
There HAVE been changes, with several iterations of PRIA they've ensured that airlines have visibility into the failures, violations, incidents, and accident history of those they might employ as pilots. This all came about because in the past pilots with bad histories were able to keep getting hired, and keep crashing planes (as recently as about ten years ago). I think the government is happy with the current system. They're not interesting in catering the to entitled desires of a few people who were raised to think that all you have to do is show up, and there are no consequences to choices, failures, or successes.

The real problem is kids who expect everything will be spoon-fed, instructors who just want to get their time and move on, and flight schools which just want to see the production moving.

As a student (if you want a crack at legacy payscales someday) it is utterly incumbent on YOU to manage your own training...

1. Carefully research the type of program which will work best for you.
2. Carefully research schools and instructors. If in doubt, just walk away.
3. Carefully research DPEs. If in doubt, just say no.
4. You have to do the work. Not just "good enough", but go above and beyond in your preparation. Since GA checkrides are done in the real world, you need to have enough confidence and comfort level to deal with unexpected challenges from ATC, weather, traffic, etc. Airline checkrides are far more consistent, and are done in the sim, so you have to look forward to.

Early on try to find a mentor who you can bounce ideas off. Career advice from CFI's should be taken with a grain of salt, they're not airline pilots and may never be. Career advice from senior old airline CA's should be taken with a grain a salt... those Migs he nailed over Hanoi are not relevant to your career, and neither are his carrier landings or top-gun class rank. Ideally you'd get advice from a junior regional CA or a junior major FO (who did civilian training)... they're experienced enough to know the lay of the land but junior enough to still have relevant knowledge. If you're talking to a guy who filled out paper apps and went directly from a 19 seat turboprop to a legacy which no longer exists, his knowledge is probably dated.

Fundamental caution on attitude: It's not going to be good enough to "be able to do the job" The best jobs pay many hundreds of thousands per years, with 1/2 - 2/3 of the month off... that's going to be very competitive, and flying ability/history is only part of it. You have to strive to stand out head and shoulders above the rest of the pack... don't relax on your laurels until you finish probation at your career-destination airline.

If you're not striving for the top-tier, then sure go ahead and accumulate a few busts along the way. The regionals, fractionals, and maybe ULCC/ACMI will still have you. And there's the always the wild, wild west of 91/135.

Now with all that said, maybe flight training got a little loose during the recent boom years with all of the turnover and maybe the FAA needs to take a round turn on that. But as a student, that's even more reason to carefully manage your own training.
The problem I have with this is the same problem with so many similar issues.

The initial student has no concept of all of these things. They don't understand them. They can't do "careful research". They don't understand how to say "no" or what to do. Only years later with dozens of checkrides under their belt, do they tend to really understand these things, as a combination of experience, maturity and knowledge. It's like the college student taking out student loans or even choosing a school/major, they just don't have the real understanding at that stage of the implications and full picture to really know what they are doing. Saying "do your research" is a bit of a cop-out IMO.

The longer the student is in the game, as in the higher and further they go, the better they tend to be able to understand and control these things...but sometimes the damage is already done.
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Old 01-24-2021, 09:33 PM   #10  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CFI Guy View Post
For the record, I can do coordinated steep turns all day just by using my feet and looking outside while keeping the nose on the horizon. Venmo me $20 and I'll send you a video.
So you have an aircraft that is neutrally stable in bank at 50 degrees of bank and must be flown at a negative pitch attitude in level flight to allow for the nose on the horizon in the steep turn?
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