JoeSkurkis

Question for everyone. To attend a 141 school and get the benefits of it, is it mandatory to get the degree and go through college to get the reduction in hours? Or can you just do the program and stick to their syllabus and get the reduction without the college coursework? I ask because I am lucky enough to have both in my backyard. Also what I find strange is that you hear 141 school costs more, but the 141 school near me is $25k less than the 61 school. I plan on enrolling this coming week so any insight is greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Switch

In order to get the 1000 or 1250 TT R-ATP you will need to complete a 4 year or 2 year degree respectively along with your 141 flight training. You will still be eligible for the reduced times that part 141 training offers for Private Instrument and Commercial without doing the college coursework.

prayforwaves117

61.160 they need to graduate from the institution and complete instrument and initial commercial to be eligible for the 1250-1000 ratp. Some schools don’t offer that many aviation classes as part of the curriculum. For example, show up with PPL, need to do CFI at the school or re do PPL ground.

rickair7777

Yes. For clarity, two completely separate issues...

The 141 reduced times for PPL/IR/CPL are not actually "reduced". That's simply the aeronautical experience required to acquire those ratings under 141. Once you get the ratings, they are unrestricted. The 141 "reduced" aeronautical experience requirements for those ratings applies with any 141 course or school, university or mom n' pop.

The "restricted" ATP is restricted because it allows you to serve as a 121 SIC but not PIC. The R-ATP is available under several different conditions.

1. Age at least 21 but < 23. This is available to anyone regardless of training program... all you have to do is fall in the specified age range. This can combine with the other two...

2. Mil pilot: Need 750 hours for R-ATP.

3. Completed an FAA approved university degree program which included 141 flight training (the training has to be part of the program).
Two year degree: Need 1250 hours for R-ATP.
Four year degree: Need 1000 hours for R-ATP.
The program needs to meet three criteria...
a) University Flight Ops Degree (can't major in business and get the reduced mins)
b) Associated 141 flight training built into the curriculum
c) On the FAA's approved list for this allowance. When this R-ATP stuff started there were some schools which had a & b but not c. I'm guessing most of them have gotten on the list or gone out of business by now, but you still need to check.

rickair7777

I've taught and managed at 141 and 61 schools...

141 schools often charge as much or more for their training as 61 schools by claiming it's "better". It's not better, it's just different. The fundamental quality comes down to the instructors, and they are usually going to be the same time-building kids you'd find at any other school, 61 or 141.

The problem with 141, if the price is the same as 61, is that you graduate with fewer flight hours. Do the regionals care if you went to a 141 school? No. They care about whether you're eligible for an ATP or R-ATP... so a 141 (non-university) grad has more time building to do for that ATP.

So if the price is the same, 141 is usually a rip-off because you only need to get two things out of a flight school: Ratings and flight time. You get more flight time at a 61 school.... if the cost is the same, that's a better deal.

61 also offers more flexibility in the training, you can jump around and focus on what you need, as opposed to following a set schedule.

141 (non-university) IMO usually only makes sense if you're a vet and using the GI Bill (which requires 141).


You can calculate the cost per flight hour by dividing the total flight time for the ratings by the total cost of the program. Exclude sim time, 141 programs typically use a lot of that for the IR. There are other considerations besides cost of course, but it's good to compare that before you start weighing the less-tangible factors.

SlipIt

Great explanation- one typo tho: Four Year Degree is 1000 hours

National average to obtain PPL is about 75 hrs…. It all depends on time, money, instructor and aircraft availability, weather, etc.

The main advantage is a 4 yr degree allows you to be hired as an FO at 121 carrier with only 1000 hrs.

rickair7777

Yeah, I was still editing. Bad habit of saving my draft.

SlipIt

Ha! I actually copied your post into a text and sent to someone that asked me same question recently. Thanks for typing it out. I think people get hung up on reduced minimums to obtain the first few certs. I had a student that did it in 50 hrs and I have two right now that will be 80+ for PPL.

rickair7777

That's a good point. Typically only a real Chuck Yeager will complete ratings right at the mins.

But you can mostly ignore that fact when comparing schools, because if you go 15% over at one school, it will probably be about the same at another school.

It is good to know what they charge for flight hours over the min (there will be a charge). They might rope you in with a low program cost, and then cash in when (not if) you need to buy more hours.

But I would plan on going 15% over on flight hours, so you have the money to finish. If you can do it in less, great, but you don't want to be scrambling for cash at the finish line.

JoeSkurkis

Appreciate the insight. No degree so 1500TT it is for me haha. What I find super weird though is the 141 eligible school wants $75k and the 61 wants $100k. Both have planes less than 10yrs old. I like the idea of the 141 school even without getting the R-ATP because its less price and I dont have to shave or cut my hair haha. But the guy really tries to dance around the money issue each time I bring it up. I had to really use my sales skills against him to be able to get some numbers out of him. He also doesnt want me doing this full time even though I have explained that I have the time to do it fast and be there every single day because I have nothing else going on. He loves to play on it being a 141 school but what it sounds like is that means nothing to me without the degree to reduce TT. The 61 school is ATP where I can do the accelerated program which I have the time and desire to do, but its $25k more, a uniform, and I have to cut my hair and shave haha. Ive also heard though that they try to keep your flight time to minimum and people are sometimes only flying 2 times a week. Im quite frustrated and uncertain about which route to go because Im paying all this money so making the right choice is paramount.