One last training question
 

So I’ve gone back and forth over this, but I’m looking for a little bit more input. I had a discovery flight last week with an independent CFI who will charge me 120 hr/wet for training in a cesna 150 along with 40 bucks an hour for her instructing. I’ve figured to get a ppl with her would be around 9k if I knock it out in around 60 hrs. I’d also be paying for an online ground school, and all exam fees, plus or minus a little more. And while I’ve read mom and pop training is better than places like ATP, I have concerns about there being little structure from the training. However, I feel somewhat obligated to give her my business since she did that discovery flight for free.

My other option is to go to a local 141 school in my area for my PPL, pay their package rate of 12k which includes 44hrs of flight time, 130 or so hrs of instruction, ground school, exam books, etc. I’d still also be out exam fees. However, this school is owned and operated by former AF pilots who also train NATO pilots. I’d be training here out of a Grumman AA5, and possibly receive better instruction, but I don’t know that for sure.

After the PPL I will be using my GI bill for all other ratings, so this will mainly be my biggest cost for training. What are your opinions and thoughts?

A few thoughts:

141 vs 61 - doesn't matter, you will have the same PPL at the end of the day. And it doesn't sound like you're positioned to get any of the R-ATP benefits (as you have to do your training through a University program).

141 is more structured. 61 is less structured. Which do you like? You will take the same check ride at the end of the day.

The biggest differentiator is probably how quickly you want to train. Typically, a 141 school has more airplanes and more instructors, along with AATD/Sim devices, that will allow you to progress more quickly. Your local independent 61 teacher usually has 1 airplane and when it's down for mx or the weather sucks for a week, or they go on vacation you lose that week.

First, don't feel obligated because of a discovery flight, but you may want to go with the independent instructor if they can fly with you a lot.

Second, package deals can be bad, in fact I'd be worried about handing over money in advance. Especially if you have no idea when you'll get an instructor assigned (some have waiting lists) or any guarantees on how often you'll fly, or whether the company will even stay in business. You might also get passed around from instructor to instructor as they get their hours and move on. That single instructor will probably be committed to completing your training. On the other hand, if you go with the independent instructor, you might not have options if you decide you get along (though you can probably switch to the big school if it isn't working out)

Either an independent instructor or a school can be a good option under the right conditions. You need to know:
-Is there a waiting list/when will I get an instructor?
-How many times a week am I guaranteed to fly? (The more the better, 3-5x week if you can)
-How many airplanes do you have/airplane availability? How much downtime do they normally have?
-How many students are assigned per instructor (if workload is too high, you may get substandard training)?
-What is your instructor turnover rate/How long will you be instructing before you leave for a better job?
-What times and days are you available to train me/does it line up with my schedule?

You may not be able to ask these questions directly (or they may not answer directly), but if you can talk to a current student or get a reference these questions are very important.

Ask 10 people this question and you'll get 10 answers. It's difficult to know what you're getting into and how it will play out when you first start - which is why everyone has the same question you just asked. It's the old saying, "you don't know what you don't know". Either route can work just fine and some of the key variables have already been pointed out. Earning your first certificate is the most challenging because you don't know what it takes to pass a checkride. From there on, you have a pretty good idea on what to expect. So here's my opinion that you asked for. Flying is flying - you can either do it or not on the day of the checkride. The oral portion, that you need to pass first, is always a much more challenging hurdle. But this is also where YOU can do a lot to better your chance of success and for minimal cost or even for free. Read, Read, Read. Lots of books out there to help prep you and a million YouTubers out there as well - some better than others, YMMV.

I bounced around different flight schools, flying clubs, independent instructors, etc - all part 61. Some felt like a good fit, others felt like they were stealing my money. Some had zero structure, some had a good syllabus. I spent several years flying for fun part time while gaining my certificates. I'm not sure if I spent more or less money than someone who paid a big name school to have it all done in 18 months or less but I do have zero debt from it. Debt management is important when you're just getting started and throwing out those first applications.

Thanks for this. While I’ve not flown since my discovery flight due to waiting on a possible foot surgery with my guard unit there are two things you mentioned here. One is check rides, I’m still studying the ASA book and going through the Sportys online school, but the oral portion already has me worried. Also, being debt free is my biggest goal. With the GI bill, I should be able to get most of my training for free. Couple that with the hope to be at the 1250 R-ATP minimum and hopefully within the next 2.5 to 3 years I can be at a regional. My biggest fear is missing the hiring wave people mention that will happen in the next 4-5 years. If I can make it to a ULCC by the time I’ve 50 (being 39 currently) I’ve be perfectly happy.

To be honest where I live, there are very few people doing flight training. Although all the questions you mention are things I should look into it appears. Thanks for your input.

As you stated 141 might be the way to go, even if it does cost me a few more bucks out of pocket. However, I like the sound of structure instead of just winging it. Also, I would be positioned for an R-ATP from the community college I’ll be attending after PPL, but I must get this first hurdle out of the way and be prepared to attend during the summer session to start instrument training.

Know that the block package isn’t going to get you to checkride.

Finishing in 44 hours is rare. Most people require around 65 hours… so you’re only approximately 2/3 of the way there when you exhaust the prepurchases flight time

This is why I think the independent Cfi might be cheaper and maybe better for me in the long run, just so much to think about. The block package training would be in a Grumman AA5 at 180 an hour and 60 with a CFI as compared to 120 for a cesna 150 and 45 the cfi time. Just in that alone I’d save almost 4k if I need an instructor for every single hour flown past the 44. Just a lot to process for someone who doesn’t really know anyone else in the aviation industry to ask besides you guys.

It's the quality of instruction that is the issue. There are puppy-mill "do it as fast as you possibly can" 141 schools out there and there are good 141 schools with structure that hold you to the standards. Same goes for Part 61, there are old timers or those that don't care enough to be current on the standards, skills and knowledge, and those that keep themselves sharp and up on everything. Unfortunately, as a new student pilot, you are basically in the worst position possible to evaluate these things. The more life experience you have, the better you can sniff out the shady stuff.


The problem if you do it at a place that doesn't hold you to the standards is that if you manage to pass, you'll be in for the shock of your life when you go to work any commercial job that actually does hold you to those standards. Those pilots typically do not last long or have to go back to the basics and re-learn everything somehow.

I advised a cousin (older career changer) to consider an independent CFI instead of a puppy mill. The CFI then flaked out on him and he lost his enthusiasm for aviation.

With an independent, you need to evaluate their stability and reliability... how long have they been teaching at this location, how many students do they train each year, how old are they, and do they have other career aspirations beyond CFI?

Too many students could mean you'll have trouble scheduling when you need to. If you're training full time and can fly whenever that will maximize your scheduling opportunities. Too few students might mean they have other jobs or businesses which might be a priority to them.

Young, airline-oriented CFI's will not stick around for long at all. If you work with one, need to know how close they are to ATP/R-ATP mins, because they'll be gone the next day when they hit that threshold. They might have R-ATP eligibility at 1000 or 1250 hours based on where they went to college.

That also applies to a small school where Mom & Pop are instructors... they might lose their young CFI's to the airlines, but does it appear that the owners will stick around?

Be cautious of a C150.

Over years the weight may vary considerably from “new”.
That’s two 150lbs individuals with two flight bags.
I’ve worked at a school where the difference in empty weight between two C152’s was a staggering 80lbs (!) which meant I could fly one plane with a particular student and not another.
This was unfortunately frequently ignored by the school in question.

In short you may be fuel limited in that C150 which means you’ll be limited to lesson duration which may make it essentially useless.

Also it would be beneficial to do your instrument rating in the same make and model as your Private. This will save you 5-6 hrs of getting used to the airplane.
I doubt that C150 is adequately equipped.

As far as the 141 school, we averaged 44 hrs for a Private so they may very well be on par with that number.
Plan for 20-25% higher budget.

In general I would recommend against a self employed independent CFI as they’re unsupervised and are not held responsible for the students progress or lack thereof.

Totally variable depending on the individual. Do your homework, and ask around the airport (and GA community if you know anyone).

You only get the R-ATP if the 141 program you train under is approved, and in conjunction with, your community college or university.

Training at a 141 school and separately doing some sort of aviation degree at an unrelated college/university does not make you eligible for R-ATP.

The schools I have looked at use FTA affiliates for their training it appears. Liberty uses US Aviation in the Denton TX area and would net the 1000 hr RATP. Tarrant County Community college also uses US Aviation Academy but at Allliance airport in the DFW area and would offer the 1200 hr RATP since it would be a 2 year degree. Neither have an actual flight school , but just I guess contract for the students to fly at US Aviation Academy.

Thanks for this, gives a lot of insight. If I could get my private between 44-55 hrs I’d be ok. However, I’ve read it takes most people 60+ hrs and I’ve like to consider the high side of what I’d be spending before I went the route with them.

I don’t think at either place I would have to worry about the CFI leaving. The independent instructor has over 2k hrs and does pipeline patrol 3 days a week in the town I live in. She has made it clear she be willing to fly whenever I’m available. Also, the 141 school has mostly retired military guys giving instruction, but then again the instruction would be in a Grumman Cheetah and I’d definitely not be doing an instrument rating in that. But then again, the 150 the independent CFI has I wouldn’t be using for instrument rating either. So much to consider, but you guys have gave me a lot to ponder.

Yep. Familiar with both of those, and both are legitimate programs.

I think I said this in another thread somewhere, but also don't overvalue the R-ATP....the difference between instructing to 1000 hours and 1500 hours is a matter of 4-6 months if you're busting it instructing full time. IIRC you're using GI Bill so you will have to end up in a 141 program, but unless the degree portion is free you have to weigh that cost into the decision, and I wouldn't value it very highly.

At this current point in history, degrees aren't required to be an airline pilot. I'm still in favor of people getting a degree, but I think of it more in terms of workforce competitiveness should the airline industry have its next once-in-a-lifetime meltdown. And in that doomsday scenario, a degree in aviation science or whatever is less marketable than a business degree you could get for the same money.

If you fly a lot (3 times a week, say, which means, with weather and other contingencies scheduling 4-5 times a week) you should be able to get it done in 50 or less. The 65-hour average is accurate, and comes from students dragging the process out much too long.

How Much would you value the difference is 250 hrs in the RATP. That would be the difference between Liberty being a 4 year degree vs Tarrant being a 2 year program.

TBH, almost not at all. If you're at a school that has ample supply of students** (big caveat there) you should be able to average 2-3 flights per day 5 days a week (bad weather days you may need to come in a 6th day to keep your averages up!)


15 flights a week >> 60 flights a month >> avg. 2 hours per training flight >> 120 hours per month.....this isn't fun, but it's totally doable.


So with that math, you're talking about 2 months for 250 hours.


Question: Are you planning to do this full time? Or are you training part time?


With TCC or Liberty, when can you start instructing? Only after you've graduated? If so it's going to take you 2-4 years just to get through school. Then ~18 months to get to 1500 hours. So total time 42-66 months zero to hero?

If you went to a non-university 141 school full time (still use your VA benefits) and you would be a CFI/CFII inside of 1 year, and then have your 1500 hours in another 18 months. So, zero to hero in 30 months.

Non-university 141 program part-time--might take you 18 months for training plus 18 months instructing/time build....so 36 months.


Then down the road, do an online degree program while you're sitting reserve at the regional airline.

Yes to doing this full time. Here is the downside to using VA benefits at a 141 non university, you can only then receive 13k a year towards flight training. That would mean basically one rating a year, that doesn’t seem real feasible to me and I would also not receive any MAH if I went that route. The MAH alone would be 1k a month just for going the university route.


My main goal has always been start this year at 39 years old, 40 in September, and have all ratings by 42. Tbh I’m not sure I’ll want to be a CFI, and I honesty would have no issue renting a plane and flying it. I know that’s not the preferred route. However, like many have said right now these seem to be unforeseen times. Honestly, while going to school I could use the 1k a month from MAH to rent a plane and fly even if that’s only 10 hours extra a month for 2 years.

Even if you don’t intend to work as a CFI per se it’s a very useful rating to have and you certainly learn a lot while doing it.
Get all three instructor ratings just as a matter of training and improving your skills.
That should all be covered by the GI Bill.

It all comes down to your goals. If you want to be at a 121 airline ASAP you need to be a flight instructor. There's just no other fast way to build time.

In reality, I don't see a lot of people towing banners or dumping skydivers. There just aren't a lot of those jobs. You could more likely be able to get on some sort of 135 operation, but folks that go that route are always very disappointed with the amount of flying they're getting. Hitting 500 hours per year is a big feat for most 135 operations. I have a friend that flies aerial survey right now...a "good month" for him is flying 20 hours.

So, if it takes you 2 years at TCC to get your ratings, you rent a 150 10 hours a month...then at the end of your training you're going to be at around 490 hours. Call it 500 if you get your CFI/CFII ratings.

The question becomes how quickly can you get the remaining 750 hours to get to the airline?

- 135 operation - ~1-3 years
- CFI - ~6-9 months

Another motivational way I used to think about this: every month that I'm *not* an airline pilot is one less month of captain pay at the end of my career. So if I'm making ~$30k a month when I am 64 years and 11 months old....that's what one month costs me today.