Not2old2fly

I am new here, and part of it that I wanted to join this forum was that I saw that news segment as well.

So realistically, for a guy like me that is at age 40 starting from ground up, would I be able to make it to major airlines in about 5 years, and how much debt would I have to take on? I see that the mandatory retirement age for major airline pilots is 65, but after age 65 is still possible to fly for private, non-profit, or instruction?

JohnBurke

No.

It doesn't really matter what your age, the cost will be the same, but the cost varies by the type of training you seek out. Whether you're 18 or 40, if you go to a dedicated "part 141" flight school, the cost doesn't change with age. The cost of a 141 school vs. a mom-and-pop "part 61 school" may vary considerably, as it will differ from going through a community or four year college flight training program. If you seek training at Embry Riddle, you'll pay through the nose, vs. if you go somewhere that you can buy ten hour blocks of flight time for a discount. If you fly regularly, you'll end up spending less than if you fly less frequently.

Age 65 is a limitation for airlines, but doesn't restrict you from other kinds of commercial flying, instruction, charter, corporate, fractional firefighting, etc. There is no age limitation on private flying. Not sure what you mean by non-profit flying.

PotatoChip

Wouldn't be so sure about that anymore.

Especially considering this new pathway program: https://atpflightschool.com/airlines...-alliance.html

Zero to Spirit Hero in two years. In all likelihood probably closer to three, but still. Times are changing. Not saying I'm happy about it, though.

Not2old2fly

What areas would Red Cross, Doctors without Boarders, etc... belong to if you are a pilot for them, would you be a charter pilot with a contract with them?

DontLookDown

Most charity flying falls under part 91.

It’s usually a pilot providing his own airplane and time, covering all costs, to fly for a good cause.

JohnBurke

I'm not sure if I understand your question, but while some disaster relief organizations do own or operate aircraft, most do not. If you're talking about international operations, there are some relief operations that use US certificated pilots or N registered aircraft, but when working abroad, it's more common to see aircraft or many nationalities, and in most cases, these do not operate under US regulations. "Part 91" is a section of the US Code of Federal Regulations, but doesn't apply to most operations outside the United States. Within US borders, most disaster relief aircraft are either contractors, or government aircraft, and operate under a number of different regulations.

I think what you're asking is about pilot qualification and restrictions, reference the Age 65 question: for pilots performing disaster relief or emergency operations, except for those doing it in the employment of an airline, there isn't an age limit unless the agency or contractor specifies one.

Within the US, most commercial operations and contractors will have minimum limitations on pilot experience and qualification, and in many cases, the operator performing the duty is also a charter operator. For example, with the many wildfires we've had over the past few years, aircraft are used to fly over the fire and circle, while helping manage the airspace and the fire itself. These are "air attack" platforms, and their pilots operate under Part 135, and must meet not only Part 135 minimums, but also government minimums to hold a certification card to do their job...1,500 hours total minimum, etc. There isn't an age limit. Conversely, the pilots who are dropping retardant on the fire are operating under several other rules, including Part 91, Part 137, and so on, and these must also meet government minimums, have no age limit, but aren't under a charter certificate holder. Pilots operating for US companies abroad might perform contract work that ranges from surveillance for the US military, to delivering grain and food to African countries under the UN World Food Program.

A number of humanitarian aircraft operations are conducted through private organizations or charities, such as churches or benevolent organizations. They may carry missionaries, food, sick or injured, etc, and in most cases, are operated under their own requirements, plus any country requirements; these typically have no age limits, but in most cases require that you belong to the organization or church conducting the missions.

Medicens Sans Frontieres (also sometimes called "Doctors Without Borders") is headquartered in Geneva, Switzerland, is a global organization, and utilizes services of various aircraft and organizations, some chartered, some operating with their logo, etc. In most cases, to fly for those organizations, or those whom they charter, you'd need certification with a foreign country, which can be quite expensive, and difficult to obtain. Some nations will hire you with your FAA certificate and you can do a "conversion" to the local pilot certification, or operate under the FAA certificate...in most cases, you need pilot certification appropriate to the country or registry (but not always).

Pilot hiring works on the basis of several metrics: your experience and certification is always an important consideration. You can't be hired unless you're qualified, and most jobs also set a minimum number of hours, and type of certification (seaplane rated to fly sea planes, for example, or a tailwheel endorsement to fly conventional gear airplanes). Insurance companies set minimum requirements, which may be a minimum total time, minimum time in a geographic area (Alaska, for example), type of flying (minimum time on floats, etc), and often a minimum amount of time in a particular type of airplane. Organizations have their own requirements, as do nationalities and government oversight organizations. The amount of experience one can be expected to have for a given job depends how competitive that job may be: if the job pays very little and the operator has a hard time getting applicants, the requirements may be lower, and those you might compete with to get the job might be less experienced. Very often, other applicants are much more qualified for the job than the advertised minimums. A company might state, for example, that 1,500 hours is their minimum experience level, but if every other pilot has 10,000 hours, those become the "competitive minimums" to get the job...you will need comparable experience to be competitive, or to be considered for the position. Total time isn't everything; it might be experience specific to that type of operation (firefighting, etc) or it might be experience specific to that type of aircraft. If you're after a job spraying crops and the other applicants have 20,000 hours and no tailwheel or agricultural experience, and you have 2,000 hours and all of it is in ag aircraft spraying crops, you're the competitive one. It really depends on the job and the organization, who else applies, insurance, etc; it's not a simple question to answer.

Regarding the question previously about whether you can begin flight training today and expect to be at a major airline in five years...the optimist might say that anything is possible. Realistically, those jobs are sought by a very large number of qualified pilots. For every open position, there are thousands of applicants, each very qualified, most of them with solid experience behind them, many with prior captain experience, perhaps coming from a regional airline, etc. To get to the point where you are competitive for that job, takes some time. The ebb and flow of the industry, the cycles of the economy, etc, prevail. Throughout my career, I've seen periods of significant hiring activity, and periods of stagnation when it's nearly impossible to find work. If you're in the business very long, you'll have seen mergers, furloughs, downsizing, bankruptcies, etc. Very often, your first job will be flight instructing; this is the quintessential entry-level position that pilots often use to get their initial hours and experience after gaining pilot certification. Life circumstances dictate your own flexibility, whether you're able to move to chase work, deal with low wages inherently part of entry level aviation, and handle the changes that occur with an aviation lifestyle. You may find yourself looking at charter work, flying freight, doing corporate or fractional work, utility work like spraying crops, fighting fire, or working for a Sheriff's office; you might do air ambulance under a charter company, ferry factory produced airplanes for Cessna, or go to Alaska and fly supplies and people between villages or do aerial tours. You might fly passengers on in the Grand Canyon, or take a job dropping skydivers. Towing banners. Flying for a missionary organization. With the exception of airline flying, there are few age limits, but the requirements for any given job really vary so widely with the type of work and organization and mission and equipment flown and competition, that it's hard to pin down specifics without very specific questions.

For someone starting out, my advice is to focus on the training; everything you do in your career comes back to the basics and fundamentals of flight. An airline crew failed to act properly on an approach into Buffalo, NY, a few years back and killed some people. The fallout from that Colgan Air crash resulted in an act of congress and changes to the industry that affected a lot of people. Indeed, most regulatory changes have been driven over the decades by mishaps that involved loss of life, so much so that it's often said that the regulations are "written in blood," because the changes often occur as the result of tragedy. These tragedies, in turn, very often occur due to lapses in the most fundamental of airmanship skills and practices: failure to carry enough fuel, failure to fly the airplane, etc. Some of the worst air disasters we've had come down to the most basic things that apply to every student and private pilot: learning these is core to who you are as an aviator, no matter what you end up doing, and these are the skills and attributes that you will use daily and return to again and again on every flight. So, focus on the flight training: it may be some of the most important flying that you do in your career, because your life, and that of others, and your career itself, hinges on what you learn, internalize, retain, and make habit.

Looking to the future, don't limit your horizon. Presently there's a great sucking sound from the airlines; they're hiring at an elevated rate: this pulls pilots from all venues, and creates numerous vacancies. Movement in the industry due to growth or changes tends to benefit everyone. I have always encouraged prospects to not limit their options. Just a few days ago I flew with a crew and we discussed other kinds of flying. I mentioned Alaska, and one said that such flying would never cross his mind. His goal had been flying for an airline from day one, and it's exactly what he was doing. Nothing wrong with that, however, things change. About 12 years ago I found myself furloughed, and most of my compatriots didn't find work during their furlough. I found a local job turning wrenches, and shortly they needed someone to do charters in a Cessna 210, then some of their multi engine airplanes. While I was starting turning wrenches as a mechanic on their shop floor, furloughed airline pilot after furloughed airline pilot stopped by the shop asking if there was work to be had. I told them that the shop needed someone on the floor, working on the aircraft. I was dismayed to find that every single one of them turned up their nose at the job, saying it was beneath them. They were, after all, airline pilots. Not long after, they returned, having found no work. Anything yet? I pointed out that the company had a run in a single engine airplane at night, flying some radioactive medical supplies. They refused. Beneath t hem. By the time they returned again, I was working as a check airman for the operator, staying busy, but the flying jobs were gone, the shop jobs filed, and the airline pilots were finally willing to take anything they could find. Egos weren't so inflated any more, but the work was gone. Don't limit yourself or your choices. There's a lot to do in aviation.

I'll add this, too. It's been shared many times, but I think it's still relevant. I was approached by a young man years ago about the direction he might take, and I suggested he apply to a local air ambulance operation. It was busy, running multiple turboprops around the clock. They did good work, had a good operation. The young man said he didn't want to do that, because he'd heard that many of the pilots were happy there, and enjoyed the job . I ageed; the place had a solid reputation and pilots did find the mission fulfilling, the job rewarding, and they liked the hours, schedule, etc. They liked the aircraft. The young man said no, he wanted to fly for the airlines. He didn't want to fly for the ambulance operation, because people who went there found they liked it so much they often stayed, and that meant they lost their ambition. He said he wanted to keep his ambition, and that he wouldn't allow himself to be happy anywhere, satisfied, comfortable, until he'd reached his major airline goal. The thing is, we're in aviation. The goal of passengers is the destination. Ours, as pilots, really is the journey. We're not there for the destination, we're there for the airplane. We spend a lot of money and time and effort and sweat and heartache and study and preparation, to fly the airplane. It's the journey. We do the flight; the passenger pays to start at A, and go to B. We strive to be in the space in between, the space between A and B. That's what we do: it's the journey, and if you're not happy with the journey, I submit you'll never truly be happy in this business.

With that said, don't worry too much about age as a limiting factor. There is far too much journey in aviation to be limited by age, because for much of it, age doesn't apply. I know a number of active 70 year old pilots. Certainly not as many as 20 somethings, and the focus is sometimes different, and many don't want to be working when they're 70...but there is plenty of work out there, and there are plenty of things to do, that don't through you off the apple cart when you turn 65. My goal when I started on this ride, nearly four decades ago now, was to experience everything . That was my ambition. I've had a chance to experience a lot, but learned as I went that it's probably only possible to experience a small bite of what's really out there...but that small bite has still been quite a journey. I don't have a destination, and frankly, I'm okay with that. You'll have to decide what's on your horizon, but I'll say this and end: I've been asked many times over the years what my favorite aircraft is, what my favorite job might be. My answer has been consistent over the decades: it's whatever I'm flying now. It's whatever I'm fortunate to be flying now, because there are a lot of people who dream of doing this who can't due to life circumstance, health, finance, politics, geography, etc. I don't have a destination in terms of a dream job, final goal: I'm living my final goal. I'm doing what I dreamed of as a kid. I'm flying aircraft, I'm turning wrenches, I'm still learning more every day about the industry, the people, the aircraft, the mission, the job, the way of life. I still write about it, still share it, still hear the experiences of others that I'll never have, but can still glean and savor vicariously. Flying is a job and quickly becomes a job, but it's also a passion, and that permeates skin and membrane, tissue and dreams. Every room in my house has libraries and book shelves most of them filled with books on flying and writing. My storage lockers and garage are littered with airplanes parts and tools. Model airplanes are on the walls and shelves. I still look up every time I hear an airplane fly over, still go outside to look for the radial engine airplane when it's in the area, still hang out at airshows and fly-ins and air museums. Still read every flying book and magazine I can find . The bathrrom racks are full of flying magazines and writers digest, all read and highlighted. If aviation is your passion, even if it's just one sliver of it, then you're justified in pursuing that, regardless of your age, and regardless of what limits the industry might place upon you. It's a big world, a big industry. There's more to it than airlines. This is airline pilot central, but here you'll find pilots who have done everything under the sun, from military to airshow flying to crop dusting to corporate, fractional, charter, banners, jumpers, law enforcement, missionary flying, you name it. Some here build airplanes. Some maintain them. Some instruct. Some of us have done all those things, and sitll hope to sample or do more. I submit that your limitations will be many, your challenges a lot, and if you pursue them and embrace them, your options, not few. It's a wide horizon. You're cleared to take off. Just pick a direction, and go.

dckozak

Its funny listening to a bunch of, what 50 to 60 year olds bemoaning the "current generation". The "Greatest Generation" served in WW2, really got shot at, came home, raised a family, than........... bemoaned an entitled generation, often referred to as the Woodstock Generation, for their association (rightly or wrongly) with a music festival in a New York cow pasture. Drugs, sex and rock and roll. "Get a job!!" they yelled, and so do you. You guys are the product of, and were also considered spoiled, just as your parents where. I wonder how many pilots here wished they had flown more sorties over the ME, spent more hours or years in a smelly Cessna, or loaded more bags into a crappy Twin Otter or Navajo Chieftain. I'll wait to see how many hands go up.

60av8tor

I loved my mission in the ME and kept myself in operational assignments for a 1/4 of my 20 years. Most of that time was picking up 20-somethings that were blown to $hit. So you know where you can shove your “really got shot at comment”? I don’t care if you’re 20 or 50, it stings a little when I would hear a 20 something complaining about making 60k swinging gear to Buffalo when I think about what some their age had done…

dckozak

Thanks for your service to our country. Your whine just tastes a little sour.

60av8tor

I don’t want an effing thank you; I didn’t do it for anyone but those around me. In fact if you really knew, you would know how service members that actually did crap would go out of their way to avoid those situations. Not really sure what I’m whining about? You acting like service members in the Me weren’t in harms way?? That’s not me whining, that’s me telling you to **** - and yes, I would say it to your face.

That was Sierra tango.., you know the rest