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141 vs. independent instructor

Old 11-04-2005, 08:30 AM
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Default 141 vs. independent instructor

I've been reading these forums and you guys post a lot of great info for young guys looking to get into the industry. Thanks so much for that.

You've heard the background a million times. 19 years old, in college, dreams of becoming an airline pilot.

My folks aren't willing to send me to an aviation college like ERAU, so I'm going to have to pursue flight certifications locally. I know a pilot, who knows some instructors he can put me in touch with, but if I acquire certification with these guys I'm worried that not having gone to a 141 certified school will hurt my prospects of finding a job ultimately. Am I correct in thinking this? My friend says it doesn't matter, but I e-mailed Delta, and they said "...you might be best served by checking into FAA accredited programs, specifically a part 141 approved school." My friend a pilot and I highly respect his opinion, I was just wondering what you guys thought. Is 141 training just bells and whistles that schools use to jack up prices?

Also, do you guys think it's better to learn near congested airspace (Class B) as opposed to driving out a little farther and going somewhere less crowded? I thought I read somewhere (not here) that crowded airspaces give you a different experience, but I don't want to be waiting on the ground for 45min prior to takeoff.

Last edited by Rich; 11-04-2005 at 08:35 AM.
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Old 11-04-2005, 08:45 AM
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Hey Rich, welcome to the boards and the industry!

What matters isn't where you got your ratings (and dumped your ca$h). What matters most is you did your training and ultimately instructing in a busy airport environment with lots of networking opportunities.

I got my ratings cheaply at a mom-and-pop flying school in Dallas, Texas (but busy, busy Class B airspace!). There were lots of business aircraft at this airport, and everyone above me was doing well-- getting Lear jobs, Barron jobs flying checks, one guy even got a job flying Forbes' 727 right seat. In short, lots of activity at the airport, which meant a ton of opportunities. You'll meet lots of pilots at a busy airport, and none of them will judge you based on where you are instructing at or where you got your basic (Pvt through Commercial/cfi) ratings.

Networking is king, Rich. To hell with the Delta commuter who told you to get into a Part 141 school. I would agree under two circumstances only- that you are rich (no pun intended), and the 141 school is extremely big and busy.

Otherwise, pick a low-cost non-141 school in a busy airport surrounding or in Class B airspace. Busy as in lots of business aircraft, a good number of flying schools, etc.

Because in the end what matters is the quality of the contacts you made while building your time up!
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Old 11-04-2005, 09:04 AM
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Hey thanks a lot I appreciate the advice. I'll probably end up getting my private license out in the boonies, and then acquire more advanced certs closer and closer to larger airspaces.

Does anyone have any recommendations about a flight school in NJ, preferably in northern NJ? I've been to a beapilot.com and I know what's in my area; I was just wondering if anyone has any preferences?
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Old 11-04-2005, 09:05 AM
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There are no right or wrong ways... but instead many different ways that will usually get you to point B, regardless of what you choose... some paths just take longer than others.

There are certain advantages that PT 141 schools have. Usually they are larger meaning that they have more resources in terms of aircraft, instructors, sims, teaching aids, etc. PT 141 rules also allow you to bypass some of the required flight time, meaning less instruction for the same ratings/certificates. Also most 141 schools have better organized programs (ie they follow syllabii, have set lesson plans, and time tables for learning)... some even have standardization manuals that teach their students and pilots to fly using the same techniques and procedures. One advantages of this is that you are being introduced into a "professional" mindset early on in your training.

The down side to PT141 schools is that you often have more BS there as well... additional paperwork, potential scheduling issues, etc. In addition, most PT 141 programs are more expensive (they often carry higher insurance premiums/coverage, and somebody has to pay for the additional resources).

As somebody that attended a PT 141 program (at the University of North Dakota), and taught in both a PT 91 and 141 environment, I can see the benefits of both. However I think that overall, you are better off in a 141 school if you want to follow through and fly professionally.

But that's just my opinion. Like SWAjet mentioned, a lot of it comes down to where you live and what is available in your price range. Do some shopping and visit the schools. Talk with the instructors there (see what the ratio of full time and part time instructors are, how many of them want to move on in their career as opposed to teaching on the side of another job, or being professional CFIs). Also be sure to talk with the students about what they think about the school:

Can they fly when they want, or is the schedule always full?
Are there enough aircraft with the equipment that you want onboard, or are they all poorly equipt and held together with duct tape?
Are they happy with their instructors?
How much time did it take to get particular ratings?
Does the school have examining authority? (Meaning do school employees do the checkrides or do you have to go with an FAA inspector or Designated Examiner?)

Hope that helps... feel free to PM me if you want to chat about it in person, I'm more than willing to offer my insights from my own experiences. ~Josh
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Old 11-04-2005, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Rich
Hey thanks a lot I appreciate the advice. I'll probably end up getting my private license out in the boonies, and then acquire more advanced certs closer and closer to larger airspaces.

Does anyone have any recommendations about a flight school in NJ, preferably in northern NJ? I've been to a beapilot.com and I know what's in my area; I was just wondering if anyone has any preferences?
I don't know of any myself, but cruise over to www.thepilotlounge.com. It's another web board that is a bit more catered to pilots that are in training. There are a few people on that board that fly out of that area and might be able to help you out.
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Old 11-04-2005, 09:10 AM
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Rich, one more thing.

When SWA interviewed me, they mentioned nothing about my non-141 training. They couldn't give a flip, as what got me the interview was my current flying job and the jet time I had built up (and 737 type rating, naturally).

The ratings label (ERAU, American Flyers, etc.) doesn't matter. The flying jobs (multi-engine, turbine, etc.) do! And you get those flying jobs largely through your networking.

Good luck.
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Old 11-04-2005, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by SWAjet
Rich, one more thing.

When SWA interviewed me, they mentioned nothing about my non-141 training. They couldn't give a flip, as what got me the interview was my current flying job and the jet time I had built up (and 737 type rating, naturally).

The ratings label (ERAU, American Flyers, etc.) doesn't matter. The flying jobs (multi-engine, turbine, etc.) do! And you get those flying jobs largely through your networking.

Good luck.
I agree (to a certain extent)... a checkride, is a checkride, is a checkride. Regardless of if you get the training from ERAU, UND, joe schmoe aviation. However many of the airlines that you will be looking for employment at (not SWA, but Air Wisc, Comair, Horizon, etc) do look more favorably on part 141 (particularly university PT 141) experience.

The marjority of the 600 hr "wonders" that are out there came from those programs. The networks that the universities have set up are the strongest in the industry... and many opportunities are available only to graduates of those programs.

Here's a link to the jobs page of my alma matter: http://studentservices.aero.und.edu/...hips/index.php
Note the number of positions that have "UND Alumni Only" (particularly at the airlines)... That status denotes reduced experience requirements for those positions based on the reputation the school has. Many other PT 141 schools have similar arrangements (I'm sure you can find similar job postings at any of the larger schools/universities around the country).
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Old 11-05-2005, 09:54 AM
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Many "mom and pop" flight schools now offer part 141 curriculums as well. Training under part 141 rules means you are following a curriculum that's accepted and monitored by the FAA. As a result of this oversight, you can get your ratings faster. I think the biggest difference you'll notice is getting your commercial rating. 250 hours are required under part 61. There is no total time requirement and only a couple cross-country requirements under part 141. I had less than 200 hours when I got my commercial rating. This saved me a ton of money.

I agree with the others. There is no "best way" however, there is a way that's best for you. Second, don't worry about getting a degree from an aviation school. In fact, do something outside aviation and make that your plan B. You pilot certificate doesn't say how you got it. It just says you have it. Likewise, most aviation jobs that require a degree say nothing about it being an aviation degree. While some schools may have special reduced minimums if you went there, or had an intership with that airline, it doesn't do much for you if they aren't hiring in the first place and the only thing having more time does is open more options for you.
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Old 11-05-2005, 04:16 PM
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Time is time a rating is a rating. Its the person who gets the job. All the where's an when's don't matter. Its how you come across on an interview and through training.
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Old 11-05-2005, 05:14 PM
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Originally Posted by loudgarrettdriver
Time is time a rating is a rating. Its the person who gets the job. All the where's an when's don't matter. Its how you come across on an interview and through training.
Agreed, however when you get the interview can depend in part (no matter how small) on where you got the training. That said, my flight training at in a University setting is no better than the training that I gave at a small flight school in the suburbs.

The only difference between larger schools and smaller programs is some potential specialization and focus towards professional careers.
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