Aerobatics
 

alright well needless to say, i got the aerobatic bug.

the unfortunate thing is, my aerobatic instructor costs about $270/hour (with the plane, obviously, a pitts s-2a)...

now is it worth spending that much money to become good at something that isn't really necessary for my career? or is the fact that its a hobby which i enjoy and will also make me a better pilot make it ok?

should i just stop the aerobatic training and wait until later in my life when i can afford it, or should i stick it out and pay out the butt while my learning curve is still relatively low and my hours are relatively low so it will still influence the way i fly "normally"?

Or, you can choose from behind curtain 2!

How about this...change career goals...get good in the Pitts and perhaps do Aerobatic instruction yourself. If you buy a Pitts right, you can make enough off of the plane and instruction to afford a nice living. I would imagine a LOT of people on these boards would trade being a regional pilot for flying a Pitts all day.

If you want to do any serious acro on a line pilot's budget you're gonna need some help from friends. That may be the only way to do any until years later when you have the money. The good news is there are people out there with airplanes who are willing to teach & share what they know. I spent 30 hours in a Cub with one and learned to do loops and spins. He made me pay for the gas.

A little acro experience might help your flying skills a bit, but if money's tight I'd spend most of it on ME time.

Coming from a training background where ACRO was automatically part of the training program I am a big fan... personally I think it makes you a better stick and rudder pilot all around. Multi time is important, but i dont think a couple hours to learn the basics are gonna to change your ME time that much.

where do you live?

I am an acro instructor in MA flying a super decathlon and an extra 300 and we have an aerobatics course that runs around 10 hours and the decathlon is 154/hr. After the course you have your tailwheel endorsement and are ready to compete in local contest in the primary category.

If after that you want more we do advanced all the way up to the unlimited category

for the basic course you will learn unusual attitude recovery
spins
loops
immelmans
hammerheads
half cubans
slow rolls
and a few other maneuvers thrown in there.

any questions let me know, there are great aerobatic schools everywhere and I would reccomend starting in something cheaper, maybe even a citabria because it will make you a better aerobatic pilot and save you money in the long run

Agree with that statement. I really appreciate when I see someone that is not flying a fire breathing Pitts, Extra, Zivco, etc. because you know they are working HARD to make the stuff look good. There is a guy on the airshow circuit doing a routine in a stock, 220hp Stearman...and he does a beautiful job - really smooth, nice looking routine. Most people watch and because there are no tumbles, and no vertical penetration, they are bored...the pilots who watch are in awe, because they know how hard he is working to do what he is doing.

I live in Kansas City, Missouri.. my acro instructor is John Morrissey(great planes aerobatics), which I'm sure if you know anything about pitts, you've probably heard of him.

if that is such a favorable seat to sit in, why dont more people do it than?


... and another thing i thought about. once you learn enough acro to solo and actually have fun with it, how do you even do it? haha... its not like you can just go out and rent an aerobatic plane? its almost like even then you have to BUY one.

I would say initially doing some "upset recovery" type of training is a good idea. My college did it and it was a great couple of lessons(flew in a Dehaviland Chipmunk). Now if you really get the bug, flight instructing in acro I'm sure is just like regular, you can't count on income, so finding some 2nd source of income would be a good idea if you were to do that on a full/part time basis. I'd love to do it myself, but it's a lucrative market and you really got to do a lot before you can bring any income back out of it.

how long does it take to get an aerobatic rating?

its not a "rating"... but like sgt said above, its about 10 hours to be able to solo and do the basics.

There are not time limits, just whatever is required by your instructor before he/she will let you solo. I wouldn't mess with a pitts, although, it may be fun but the really high performance acro planes tend to be really pricey. I would look for a decathlon or citabria or even a 150 aerobat. I used to teach aerobatics and it is a blast, you'll also want to take it easy at first so that you don't get burned out. Start out with short sessions (like 20 min) and work your way up. It takes a while for your body to get used to the stress of higher than normal g-forces. If you have a good instructor then they'll know about all this. Another way to do things cheaper is to look around and figure out who owns these kind of planes then offer to buy their gas and clean their plane/car in exchange for flying. This is also a good way to get multi time as well.

I did a little acro and loved it, but gave it up to build ME time. I say if you want to be an airline pilot, forget the acro. If you want to be a acro pilot, forget the ME time. Or you can get the multi time, get an airline job, and then do acro for fun. Assuming you can afford it with the airline pay. I still can't.

If you really want some acro training, just come sit in the jumpseat while I'm trying to land in a crosswind! :)

haha

see normally that would have been a great suggestion. but my acro instructor said something the other day that made me think... it was something to the extent of: "half of those guys flying the airliners haven't even been over 40 degrees of pitch and 60 degrees of bank in their lives, are they the kind of people you want flying you?"

or be an instructor at a place that owns a twin

I fly the one filthy two, the skychicken, the skylane, the arrow, the seminole, and the Super Decathlon

If you can find a place that will train you to instruct acro then you get the best of both worlds

too bad no one around here instructs acro, cept for the guy I'm learning from... i don't even know, what does it take to be able to instruct it?

so i take it aero is a "signoff" just like a complex or tailwheel endorsement...?

To my understanding it kind of is, but I think it is also almost like its own kind of licensing. I believe acro pilots have a couple different tiers of licensing that allows them a little more leeway on how low they can fly and exactly where they can fly. I'm pretty sure that's how it goes because you have to have a special type of license to perform aerobatic maneuvers close to the ground and close to people/buildings (Read: Airshows)

Again - I could be completely wrong but I think that's how it goes.

There is no signoff necessary for loops, rolls, hammerheads, and the like.
The regulation of acro is done for the purpose of competitions and airshows. It's a whole mess that I don't really understand, but you may feel free to go do Cuban Eights whenever you want (within the limits of the aircraft and safety, of course).

from my understanding, anyone can do aerobatics, whether your stupid enough to do them without instruction is up to you.. you just can't be over a densely populated area.


.. competition and airshows is probably another story

I think legally you can't do those maneuvers in aircraft not rated for them. And unless you have your own plane I don't think any FBO in their right mind will let you check out an aerobatics capable aircraft without some sort of training.

P.S - I know you can do limited aerobatics in Utility class aircraft such as the 152. But they are very specific on what maneuvers you can do and I'm pretty sure it's limited to stalls and spins.

Do you work for Mike? If you do, then you know who im talking about.

I dont know anyone in the state of Mass that is doing X300 instructing besides Mike... and i think he only has a couple of instructors working beside him...

Im not even from Mass... but the Akro community is a small one :p

I know! I know!! I also wish that at NASCAR races, instead of those sleek fast loud stock cars that go 180mph, they should use old ford model T's because they are really smooth and nice looking. Yeah.

I joke. I kid. It is nice every now and then to see a good old fashioned grass roots aerobatic run. Not all the time, just every now and then...

ps. When your pitts is breathing fire, you probably missed a couple of annuals. Or you are on fire. Either one. :D

Each aircraft will specify what manuevars they can do, outside of the ones alotted for in the category. So it will say something like "No aerobatic maneuvars are approved, except those listed below:". So you can do all the manuevars in the Utility Category, plus the listed aerobatic manuevars.

As for Airshows and the like, the reason they can do them so close to the ground is because they were given an FAA Waiver. Allowing them to perform that close to the ground and people.

I know you were kidding...but your post has made me SERIOUSLY doubt whether my dream of developing an unlimited acro routine in a Pietenpol will really be a money-maker. :confused:

He wants your money, so he'll say anything. Jets are different than single engine prop planes. They cannot do certain things. Other manuevers will break the plane. I go over 40 degrees and 60 degrees every year as part of the upset training we do. It's in a simulator, of course. Even if no airline pilot did ever in their life, who cares? Are they unsafe? No. They don't get into unsafe attitudes because they are safe pilots. Single engine prop aerobatics doesn't make you a better jet airline pilot.

this might be tough to swallow, but there are only a handful of people that actually make money from aerobatics.

If you are female, thats a good start. I know a couple hundred people who have been in aerobatics for 15-20 years, gone to national and international comps and barely make enough money each airshow to cover the cost of their expenses.

Unfortunately, you're gonna need another job.

The good news is: performing aerobatics and having a career in something seperate is possible. People who do well in aerobatics usually have 3 things in common: 1. The obvious... a large amount of natural talent flying the plane. 2. They are good at marketing their act to get people to want to have them in their airshow. 3. They know people.

My comment was made with my tongue FIRMLY in cheek...and was checking to see if anyone knew what a Pietenpol was - it was one of the original homebuilt airplanes...neat toys, and I want one, but VERY far from an acro machine.

around how much does an hour of x300 instruction cost?

372/hr + 53/hr for instructor for a brand new 300L

do you instruct for Mike? I responded to one of your posts in this thread but i guess you didnt see it??

after paying over $400/hour for the extra and instruction, i dont feel so bad about paying $270/hour for the pitts and instruction :rolleyes:

yes,
i work for MG

Thats great. What a great guy he is!

Do you stay busy with akro students?

I just came onboard in April of this year and I was just given the acro green light a little over two months ago. That being said I fly a little over 130 hours per month and I am booked almost two months in advance so there are more than enough acro students to have that be my sole purpose but due to my schedule alot of them had to book later down the schedule so just now that it has been a few months do I find myself in the tailwheel 15+ hours per week. It is looking like come next month or so It will more than likely be my new home.

We are short on instructors as well so if anyone is looking it is a great place to work, I have been here 4 months and average over 130 hours per month and I get to fly acro, it doesnt get much better than that. Our fleet is 80% brand new Skyhawks and Skylanes and we have a new Seminole for our multi trainer.

on a side note...anyone going to the kathy jaffe aerobatic contest at the end of the month?

hey thats awesome. It really is hard to find a job flight instructing where you get to work on your akro at the same time.

I dont know if you plan on going into aerobatics professionally or going to the airlines (i do both)... but one of the best ways to get good at akro is teaching it and watching from the back seat. And Mike is a good guy to have on your side!! Congrats on the job!

I dont plan on pursuing acro professionaly but I will continue to pursue it as a hobby. You are right, there is no better way to hone your skills than watching other people from the back. It is amazing some of the situations you get put into.

Yea, mike is a good person to be showing you the ropes...he sees my mistakes before I have even started the airplane

I don't think you can go wrong flying with John. His experience and abilitiy is without question in the aerobatic community. These few hours you will spend flying him will be with you longer then most others. You dont have to spend $10k but surely 5 to 10 hours of experience with someone who has judged/coached the leading aerobatic teams and competitions would be a worthy life experience for a pilot.

oh and yes you may like me end up waiting a few years and buying a Pitts yourself...... how can THAT be bad?!

I will say as a man who knows John he states what he said because he believes it not because he just "wants your money". You have a right to disagree with his opinion certainly.

you are correct in saying that transport jets and small aerobatic planes are different. The rudder use is a major example of this.