Bowersbum

So at the office today some other instructors were going back and forth about their students logging PIC time in the Arrow before they have gotten their complex endorsement. The time in question is going towards their endorsment and all of it is dual. I was just wondering what everone's views on this are and how you would approach it.

planecrazyjenn

Until the student earns his/her complex endorsement, I'd log it as dual.

timnunes

So long as the student has his/her single engine land rating (private pilot in this case), they can log the time as PIC. They cannot, however, ACT as PIC until they have their endorsement. Any dual recieved before they get their endorsement is still logged as PIC.

While training for a multi-engine add on, the student cannot log it as PIC while receiving instruction because they are not rated in that class of aircraft yet.

(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person—

(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges;

(ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or

(iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.

(2) An airline transport pilot may log as pilot-in-command time all of the flight time while acting as pilot-in-command of an operation requiring an airline transport pilot certificate.

(3) An authorized instructor may log as pilot-in-command time all flight time while acting as an authorized instructor.

Bowersbum

This is what i believe also.

TXTECHKA

they can't be pic without the endorsement, and if you aren't the pic then you shouldn't log pic, it's not worth it. what I usually did was give them their endorsement after the first hour (the minimum required) and then make them sign a document that stated if they took the plane out by themselves solo until then had 10 hours of dual, they wouldn't be allowed to rent anymore and whatever was in their account wouldn't be refunded. That always worked really well and everyone was happy and it was legal.

detpilot

"(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges;"

You can't log the time as PIC, even when dual working towards your endorsement. Until you have it, you do not have complex priveledges.

Bowersbum

61.31(d)2. Limitations on operating an aircraft as the Pilot in Command. To serve as the Pilot in Command of an aircraft, a person must......
Be recieveing training for the purpose of obtaining an additional pilot certificate and rating that are appropriate to that aircraft, and be under the supervision of an authorized instructor.

Seems to me that according to this as long as the training is going towards their commercial pilot cert. they can log the time as PIC. As long as before they solo it or take it up with a non-instructor they get their endorsment there shouldn't be a problem.

Slice

Wouldn't one be rated if with a SE PPL. The 'or' in the sentence instead of an 'and' makes me believe it could be logged as PIC.

windowseat

Assuming single-engine aircraft, if they are rated, i.e. it says Private Pilot: Airplane Single-engine Land on their certificate, it /IS/ legal to log PIC time in addition to dual received. Again, there is a difference between logging PIC and acting PIC.

rickair7777

The wording looks like maybe you can log it pre-endorsement. Maybe.

But I wouldn't do it. How many hours does it take to earn a complex endorsement...maybe two or so? It would not be worth the potential confusion at a future job interview for an extra 2 hours of SE piston PIC.