E-mail I received from Gulfstream
03-01-2008, 11:01 AM
#71
Line Holder
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Posts: 69
Originally Posted by Spartan07
Yeah, from what I understand of it there has to be some kind of degree/certificate awarded at the end of the program. I don't understand hoe PFJ would be applicable here.
And this isn't a sales pitch but the flight school that I am going to right now is a Part 141, degree awarding flight school that is fully certified by the VA. Don't limit yourself by asking one flight school and assuming that that is the way it is at all flight schools.
I think you might be barking up the wrong tree here and only asking about paying for flight training which is where you are getting the 60% figure. Any flight training you receive toward further ratings can be covered up to 60% by the GI Bill. However, what I am talking about is looking in to a "Flight Academy" that provides flight training and concurrent college courses to the eventual award of a collegiate degree. If the school is an approved degree awarding institution then you are available for the full GI Bill allotment, scholarships, and if eligible Vocational Rehab (Definitely look in to this and see if you are eligible).
And this isn't a sales pitch but the flight school that I am going to right now is a Part 141, degree awarding flight school that is fully certified by the VA. Don't limit yourself by asking one flight school and assuming that that is the way it is at all flight schools.
I think you might be barking up the wrong tree here and only asking about paying for flight training which is where you are getting the 60% figure. Any flight training you receive toward further ratings can be covered up to 60% by the GI Bill. However, what I am talking about is looking in to a "Flight Academy" that provides flight training and concurrent college courses to the eventual award of a collegiate degree. If the school is an approved degree awarding institution then you are available for the full GI Bill allotment, scholarships, and if eligible Vocational Rehab (Definitely look in to this and see if you are eligible).
03-01-2008, 11:02 AM
#72
Gets Paid Vacation
Joined APC: May 2007
Position: King Air 200, PA-31P-350 Mojave, Bellanca 17-30A Super Viking
Posts: 192
lol how did i not read this thread earlier??? this guy is a moron!!! hey thats great all that time, garenteed job.......awesome!! i can be stuck at a regional for the rest of my life!!! i love the part where he says that many students are working on their degree online...i think this guys opinion on higher education is really skewed!! hes proably angry because he didnt go to college and a major proably turned him down because he didnt have a real college degree..... i guess i "wasted" the last 5 years of my life getting a real degree from a well known college.....too bad wish i had known i could have spent the last 5 years being "serious" about persuing that glorious regional career..... lemme think about this.... 5 years of college,fun, partying, girls.....or gulfstream..........why is this place still in business??? lol NUTS!!!!
Last edited by Sbaker1595; 03-02-2008 at 07:34 AM.
03-01-2008, 02:35 PM
#73
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: UPS 757/767 Capt ONT
Posts: 4,357
"I'm not exactly sure how the industry see's your "pay to play f/o" philosophy de727ups."
I am sure....
It's always wrong to pay for a job. Gulfstream style PFJ does allow one to bypass the CFI route. That is by no means an excuse to pay to be a Beech 1900 F/O. There are other ways to build time that are honorable. I spent a year doing 135 Grand Canyon tours rather than CFIing. Is NEVER honorable to pay for a job.
You're seeing Gulfstream from a "what can it do for me" standpoint. I'm seeing it from a "what does PFJ do to the profession" standpoint. If you'd like to argue that paying for a job doesn't hurt the career, then we can talk. If you can't see beyond what Gulfstream can do for you, then there is no point in further discussion, as you'll never see, nor care about, the big picture.
Think about it this way. How about paying Delta 50K to be 737 F/O. It might be a good deal for you but it would be bad for the profession to go down that road. Nobody should be buying a job.....
I am sure....
It's always wrong to pay for a job. Gulfstream style PFJ does allow one to bypass the CFI route. That is by no means an excuse to pay to be a Beech 1900 F/O. There are other ways to build time that are honorable. I spent a year doing 135 Grand Canyon tours rather than CFIing. Is NEVER honorable to pay for a job.
You're seeing Gulfstream from a "what can it do for me" standpoint. I'm seeing it from a "what does PFJ do to the profession" standpoint. If you'd like to argue that paying for a job doesn't hurt the career, then we can talk. If you can't see beyond what Gulfstream can do for you, then there is no point in further discussion, as you'll never see, nor care about, the big picture.
Think about it this way. How about paying Delta 50K to be 737 F/O. It might be a good deal for you but it would be bad for the profession to go down that road. Nobody should be buying a job.....
03-01-2008, 06:29 PM
#74
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Math Teacher
Posts: 2,273
[QUOTE=de727ups;.....Think about it this way. How about paying Delta 50K to be 737 F/O. It might be a good deal for you but it would be bad for the profession to go down that road. Nobody should be buying a job.....[/QUOTE]
From an entry level point of view into the profession, PFJ may not be a bad way to go. However, I agree with you 110%, beyond the entry level, PFJ or PFT has no place in this industry.
Someone coming into the industry through Gulfstream or the likes thereof and spending 3-5 years being an FO and then upgrading to CA on the 1900D, which by the way has no automation, is to me, someone who has paid their dues. They have earned the privilege to apply/accept offer from a Major. On the other hand, if someone leaves Gulfstream and does a lateral move to say Pinnacle or ASA after completing only the training portion...(that is amassing 250 hours of turboprop FO time), then too that's ok, b/c he or she still has to get pass indoc; systems; and eventually IOE of their new airline of choice. By that time, they should have a TT of anywhere from 500-700 hours.
JMO.
atp
From an entry level point of view into the profession, PFJ may not be a bad way to go. However, I agree with you 110%, beyond the entry level, PFJ or PFT has no place in this industry.
Someone coming into the industry through Gulfstream or the likes thereof and spending 3-5 years being an FO and then upgrading to CA on the 1900D, which by the way has no automation, is to me, someone who has paid their dues. They have earned the privilege to apply/accept offer from a Major. On the other hand, if someone leaves Gulfstream and does a lateral move to say Pinnacle or ASA after completing only the training portion...(that is amassing 250 hours of turboprop FO time), then too that's ok, b/c he or she still has to get pass indoc; systems; and eventually IOE of their new airline of choice. By that time, they should have a TT of anywhere from 500-700 hours.
JMO.
atp
03-01-2008, 06:34 PM
#75
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Spartan
Posts: 3,652
Originally Posted by atpwannabe
From an entry level point of view into the profession, PFJ may not be a bad way to go. However, I agree with you 110%, beyond the entry level, PFJ or PFT has no place in this industry.
Someone coming into the industry through Gulfstream or the likes thereof and spending 3-5 years being an FO and then upgrading to CA on the 1900D, which by the way has no automation, is to me, someone who has paid their dues. They have earned the privilege to apply/accept offer from a Major. On the other hand, if someone leaves Gulfstream and does a lateral move to say Pinnacle or ASA after completing only the training portion...(that is amassing 250 hours of turboprop FO time), then too that's ok, b/c he or she still has to get pass indoc; systems; and eventually IOE of their new airline of choice. By that time, they should have a TT of anywhere from 500-700 hours.
JMO.
atp
Someone coming into the industry through Gulfstream or the likes thereof and spending 3-5 years being an FO and then upgrading to CA on the 1900D, which by the way has no automation, is to me, someone who has paid their dues. They have earned the privilege to apply/accept offer from a Major. On the other hand, if someone leaves Gulfstream and does a lateral move to say Pinnacle or ASA after completing only the training portion...(that is amassing 250 hours of turboprop FO time), then too that's ok, b/c he or she still has to get pass indoc; systems; and eventually IOE of their new airline of choice. By that time, they should have a TT of anywhere from 500-700 hours.
JMO.
atp
03-01-2008, 07:12 PM
#76
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Math Teacher
Posts: 2,273
Originally Posted by Slice
ATP, you are not yet in the industry and you are wrong. I've been a 1900 FO, it's not worth paying for. Those who do have no self respect/worth.
Naw...I just bs-ing you
. I know that you aren't.No, I haven't flown the 1900 or anything 'greater' than a 172. Acccording to one of GIA's senior pilots that I met, they rarely go above 22K' AGL. The 1900D is a "general aviation" turboprop a/c as one pilot put it to me.
I'm aware that Piedmont has 300 TT as their mins. Believe you me, after I finish my CPL w/AMEL rating, I plan on applying to companies such as Colgan, Piedmont and the like. If I not hired for any reason...and they can be varied with all of the criteria airlines use these days...Gulfstream may be the ticket/advantage that I may need to get things jump started.
I guess I'm just trying to keep my options open.
atp
03-01-2008, 07:50 PM
#77
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Posts: 151
Originally Posted by atpwannabe
From an entry level point of view into the profession, PFJ may not be a bad way to go. However, I agree with you 110%, beyond the entry level, PFJ or PFT has no place in this industry.
Someone coming into the industry through Gulfstream or the likes thereof and spending 3-5 years being an FO and then upgrading to CA on the 1900D, which by the way has no automation, is to me, someone who has paid their dues. They have earned the privilege to apply/accept offer from a Major. On the other hand, if someone leaves Gulfstream and does a lateral move to say Pinnacle or ASA after completing only the training portion...(that is amassing 250 hours of turboprop FO time), then too that's ok, b/c he or she still has to get pass indoc; systems; and eventually IOE of their new airline of choice. By that time, they should have a TT of anywhere from 500-700 hours.
JMO.
atp
Someone coming into the industry through Gulfstream or the likes thereof and spending 3-5 years being an FO and then upgrading to CA on the 1900D, which by the way has no automation, is to me, someone who has paid their dues. They have earned the privilege to apply/accept offer from a Major. On the other hand, if someone leaves Gulfstream and does a lateral move to say Pinnacle or ASA after completing only the training portion...(that is amassing 250 hours of turboprop FO time), then too that's ok, b/c he or she still has to get pass indoc; systems; and eventually IOE of their new airline of choice. By that time, they should have a TT of anywhere from 500-700 hours.
JMO.
atp
03-01-2008, 08:21 PM
#78
Line Holder
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Posts: 69
Originally Posted by LineTroll
A person paying for an FO job is one less opportunity for you (someone coming into the industry) to have a job building experience while being paid.
03-01-2008, 08:39 PM
#79
Line Holder
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Posts: 69
Originally Posted by de727ups
"I'm not exactly sure how the industry see's your "pay to play f/o" philosophy de727ups."
I am sure....
It's always wrong to pay for a job. Gulfstream style PFJ does allow one to bypass the CFI route. That is by no means an excuse to pay to be a Beech 1900 F/O. There are other ways to build time that are honorable. I spent a year doing 135 Grand Canyon tours rather than CFIing. Is NEVER honorable to pay for a job.
You're seeing Gulfstream from a "what can it do for me" standpoint. I'm seeing it from a "what does PFJ do to the profession" standpoint. If you'd like to argue that paying for a job doesn't hurt the career, then we can talk. If you can't see beyond what Gulfstream can do for you, then there is no point in further discussion, as you'll never see, nor care about, the big picture.
Think about it this way. How about paying Delta 50K to be 737 F/O. It might be a good deal for you but it would be bad for the profession to go down that road. Nobody should be buying a job.....
I am sure....
It's always wrong to pay for a job. Gulfstream style PFJ does allow one to bypass the CFI route. That is by no means an excuse to pay to be a Beech 1900 F/O. There are other ways to build time that are honorable. I spent a year doing 135 Grand Canyon tours rather than CFIing. Is NEVER honorable to pay for a job.
You're seeing Gulfstream from a "what can it do for me" standpoint. I'm seeing it from a "what does PFJ do to the profession" standpoint. If you'd like to argue that paying for a job doesn't hurt the career, then we can talk. If you can't see beyond what Gulfstream can do for you, then there is no point in further discussion, as you'll never see, nor care about, the big picture.
Think about it this way. How about paying Delta 50K to be 737 F/O. It might be a good deal for you but it would be bad for the profession to go down that road. Nobody should be buying a job.....
03-01-2008, 09:12 PM
#80
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: UPS 757/767 Capt ONT
Posts: 4,357
Apples to Oranges are what you are showing me so far. Nobody does Gulfstream style PFJ besides Gulfstream. It's unique.
The other stuff you mention isn't a PFJ player. RJ programs and hiring agreements are different than paying to act as a required crewmember at a 121 airline. Does that make sense?
But, yeah, I think entering the biz via Gulfstream Academy is not honorable.
"By the way, if Delta had a 737 f/o program and if I was paying 50K to get 737 flight time I would"
Well, I often pose that question to people who think Gulfstream Academy is a good choice and I often hear the answer you give about just buying a job at a major if you could. It's that sort of attitude that guarantees that PFJ will always be around, for a select few, and Gulfstream F/O's will continue to be a revenue source for their airline. It's also certain that people like you are managements wet dream and will help to lower the career expectations for pilots entering the industry for years to come.
I don't know how to say this nicely, so I'll just leave you with this. You have a lot to learn about the biz. Hopefully you'll figure it out before you make any big mistakes.
The other stuff you mention isn't a PFJ player. RJ programs and hiring agreements are different than paying to act as a required crewmember at a 121 airline. Does that make sense?
But, yeah, I think entering the biz via Gulfstream Academy is not honorable.
"By the way, if Delta had a 737 f/o program and if I was paying 50K to get 737 flight time I would"
Well, I often pose that question to people who think Gulfstream Academy is a good choice and I often hear the answer you give about just buying a job at a major if you could. It's that sort of attitude that guarantees that PFJ will always be around, for a select few, and Gulfstream F/O's will continue to be a revenue source for their airline. It's also certain that people like you are managements wet dream and will help to lower the career expectations for pilots entering the industry for years to come.
I don't know how to say this nicely, so I'll just leave you with this. You have a lot to learn about the biz. Hopefully you'll figure it out before you make any big mistakes.
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