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help with lazy eights and steep turns

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help with lazy eights and steep turns

Old 04-19-2008, 10:38 AM
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Default help with lazy eights and steep turns

finishing up my CFI and getting all the maneuvers perfected but today i went solo and for the life of me i couldn't figure out what i was doing wrong. when i do a lazy eight to the left, as im descending and rolling out, in order to decend to the initial alt, and turn to the correct heading, the final portion of the maneuver is more or less a shallow bank shallow decent turn and it seems sloppy. if i am uncoordinated its fine but if i keep the ball center its a mess, i dont know what im doing wrong

also steep turns to the left, when i roll into it i always climb quite a bit, aircraft is trimmed properly but i just cant keep her level.

im assuming this may be because im so used to flying the left seat, but i cant for the life of me perfect these two things. any pointers?

btw im in a arrow, doing 20mp/22rpm in the lazy 8s and in the steep turns i initially am at 19mp/22rpm

i appreciate any advice, sorry if my wording is confusing but its somewhat hard to explain...
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Old 04-19-2008, 11:02 AM
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Sounds to me like both of these have to do with the sight picture changing from one seat to the other, especially the steep turn problem. Pick a point directly in front of your eyeballs, like a bug spot on the windhield. Make note of where that spot is in relation to the horizon during level flight. Now do a steep turn, and keep that spot approximately the same distance from the horizon, just a bit higher (for the increased aoa necessary due to the bank.) I bet the first time you do this, you'll notice that you raise that spot up a bunch, hence your climbing problem.

I'd practice the steep turns for a while, getting used to the different sight picture. Once those feel natural, then go do the lazy eights, and I bet things will work out better there too.

Switching seats is tough for visual flight maneuvers, because on one side, you're used to seeing a bunch of ground in the windscreen during a right turn, and on the other, you see a bunch of ground during a left turn. You have to learn to focus on the line directly in front of your eyes, and where that is pointing.
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Old 04-19-2008, 12:06 PM
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I don't fly Arrows but the MP settings are similar in a Cutlass. You are right for noting them down so you can try adding or subtracting a little each time through. Bear in mind the gauges in these airplanes are crude and what seems right in one of them may be inches of MP off in another. Sight picture may be messing you up, and the slip skid ball may appear to be off when it really isn't due to parallax error if the unit is mounted in front of the left seat. If you are gaining height rolling into steep turns, this may be due to how the sight picture changes in the roll. The left side of the airplane will appear to descend in a left steep when it isn't, and the right side will appear to rise when it isn't. The tip about watching a chosen spot on the windscreen is ok but but you must also choose a spot that neither rises nor falls in a roll. Try putting a dot of lipstick or lip balm on the centerline of the windscreen.

Flying visual manuevers properly is a combination of proper setup followed by execution with most of your attention outside the cockpit. Use a visual reference like a mountain peak, road or ground feature rather than the DG and compass. Do not to fixate on the instruments, just use them to start the manuever, and to check progress at cardinal points. If you are really fixating on instruments try sticking a sheet of paper on them with tape a few times through, then do the maneuver without it. Commercial manuevers are designed to be challenging and are hard to do correctly even for seasoned pilots. As far as getting used to the change from left seat to right seat it takes maybe 20-30 hours to get truly used to it. You may also just be on a learning plateau which will take some additional practice to break.

Last edited by Cubdriver; 04-19-2008 at 01:53 PM.
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Old 04-19-2008, 01:14 PM
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Sounds like the steep turns are mostly the change of sight picture issue. From the right seat, rolling into a LH steep turn you will see more ground than you are used to an start to climb almost without thinking about it. When I was doing them I found that starting out if at 30* bank I rolled the trim one complete turn of nose up trim, then a little more, and added 2-4inMAP it helped me maintain the altitude very well with little work required. Like I said, it helped me...what works for one pilot may not work for another.

Also, try different power settings, no one power setting will work, each day with different temperatures will mean a different power setting.
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Old 04-19-2008, 02:33 PM
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Sounds like you are applying back pressure too early in the steep turn. It certainly could be from the change in seats, but regardless, you shouldn't need much backpressure until you pass 30 degrees of bank. Practice rolling to a 30 degree bank left and then back without gaining altitude.

For the lazy eight, remember that you should be constantly decreasing the bank in the second half of the turn. The suggested (key word) bank is 15 degrees at the 135 degree mark. You may be coming out too quickly from the bank, so keep an eye on that.
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Old 04-19-2008, 07:29 PM
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is it a 200 or 180 horse arrow? i think its easiest when performing maneuvers to just leave you're rpm's at 25.. especially in ur CFI ride, you can explain how keeping your rpm's at 25 will reduce the workload for a student new to the airplane... i always run 18"/25rpm in my arrow (180 horse) and it puts me right at 120mph... when starting your bank for your steep turn i would put your mani up to 20" and that will keep you at 120 around the whole turn...

like other guys were saying, it seems like you're adding pitch in soon. try not adding any pitch at all until your established in your 50 degree bank, just roll in a little quicker than normal and see how that feels.
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Old 04-20-2008, 04:35 PM
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The roll advice is good too. Don't be too timid. Demonstrate proper control and precision with a deliberate entry. Not too much, but don't half-way roll into it.
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Old 04-20-2008, 07:42 PM
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hey thanks for the help guys, hopefully ill get up this week and put all the advice to work, and btw its a 200hp arrow but i like your reasoning with the 25rpm thing, ill defiantly give that a shot as well. hopefully ill figure this out soon, i wana be ready for that checkride so i can start getting paid to fly!
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Old 04-21-2008, 09:49 AM
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Sounds like the Lazy 8s are okay. Just hit the recommended bank and pitch settings at the 45, 90, 135, and 180 points and everything should work out well. The last 45* of my Lazy 8s are also a very shallow turn/bank and descent. I haven't been corrected so I'm guessing it's all good.

With the steep turns, I agree that it's a sight issue. I had the same problem. Like stated earlier, find a point on the wind screen (bug or make a mark yourself with a grease pencil) and keep it on the horizon when entering the bank.

I'm also doing my CFI in a 200 hp Arrow and I never drop the RPM below 2400. MP obviously varies so just play around with it until you get it to do what you want.

Passed the FIA this morning, oral is Wednesday, flight is next Monday!
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Old 04-21-2008, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Flying Bison View Post
also steep turns to the left, when i roll into it i always climb quite a bit, aircraft is trimmed properly but i just cant keep her level.

im assuming this may be because im so used to flying the left seat, but i cant for the life of me perfect these two things. any pointers?

...

Once you start instructing, you will see 99% of primary students will decend in a left steep turn, and climb in the right turn. New CFI canidates, do the exact opposite (climb left, decend right). The reason is quite simple (though kinda hard to explane without pictures).

When one is turning to "your" side (right turn if you are in the right seat), after roll in, your eyes will be lower than the nose. Compared to level flight, the nose looks a bit high and you will let the nose drop to "normal level" flight position resulting in a decent.

(--- wings, O nose, ** eyes)

Right Seat
Level flight

--- O ** ---

Right Bank

-
-
-
O
*
*
-
-
-


When one is turning to "the other" side (left turn if you are in the right seat), after roll in, your eyes will be higher than the nose. Compared to level flight, the nose looks a bit low and you will pull the nose up to "normal level" flight position resulting in a decent.


Left Bank
-
-
-
*
*
O
-
-
-


Sorry about the "drawings".
Hope this helps.
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