ATN..All career pilots!..We need a change!
02-27-2006, 05:39 PM
#11
New Hire
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Posts: 6
Thanks everyone, i totally agree that aviation is aviation. What i have come to realize is that we are all in this together. Aviation is definatly cyclical with the world economy. As a cfi i have seen people that want to be pilots from all walks of life. Some have it some don't. There definatly is a lot of planning and patients involved with it too...well prob. more money....lol.
I have finally reached a point with my career that i can actually fly and make a little cash with it...more or less fly for nothing. I've even tried puting flying down for a while, but for some reason i just had to keep doing it. Every day i learn something new, and that's the beauty of it.
I really am thankful for everyone on this web site. I see a real potential with it. You can research both the good and the bad. I would really like to see this thread develop into, more or less, a brainstorming thread. A place where we aviators can collaborate thoughts and ideas to help make our profession better for all of us.
Blue Skies!
nealsapilot
I have finally reached a point with my career that i can actually fly and make a little cash with it...more or less fly for nothing. I've even tried puting flying down for a while, but for some reason i just had to keep doing it. Every day i learn something new, and that's the beauty of it.
I really am thankful for everyone on this web site. I see a real potential with it. You can research both the good and the bad. I would really like to see this thread develop into, more or less, a brainstorming thread. A place where we aviators can collaborate thoughts and ideas to help make our profession better for all of us.
Blue Skies!
nealsapilot
02-28-2006, 07:21 PM
#12
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2005
Position: Retired
Posts: 2,934
This industry isn't the only one that has seen a steady decline in wages and benefits. The auto industry, and for that matter most other manufacturing fields have been gutted by rising health care costs, liability costs, and the stress of competition from international firms that don't have the constraints of union agreements and less than stellar labor laws.
NAFTA hasn't helped either.
NAFTA hasn't helped either.
02-28-2006, 07:56 PM
#13
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,273
Originally Posted by Pilotpip
This industry isn't the only one that has seen a steady decline in wages and benefits. The auto industry, and for that matter most other manufacturing fields have been gutted by rising health care costs, liability costs, and the stress of competition from international firms that don't have the constraints of union agreements and less than stellar labor laws.
NAFTA hasn't helped either.
NAFTA hasn't helped either.
02-28-2006, 09:11 PM
#14
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Posts: 345
Originally Posted by rickair7777
The labor woes of the pilots can't really be blamed on foreign competition (yet)...Foreign airlines can't serve US domestic routes, and most US pax prefer to fly overseas on US airlines, even though they could fly foriegn carriers to foriegn countries. US international fares are generally not higher than foreign fares over the same route anyway.
02-28-2006, 09:22 PM
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2005
Position: Jump
Posts: 276
I'm willing to help
Nealsapilot,
I'm no longer an active CFI, but I do support the cause. I tried to start a website a few years ago to help CFI's, but it was too large of a job for one person with limited skills to complete.
Something needs to be done, and that will only happen if we work together. Let me know if you have any ideas.
My latest idea is to let the public know how poorly pilots are being paid. Perhaps if the general public realized that many pilots are near poverty wages and many have to take second jobs which leaves them tired and fatigued, then maybe they would not want to do business with those companies. If they knew how many companies hire inexperienced pilots in order to pay very low wages, maybe the public would realize that our problem is their problem too.
Perhaps a massive ad and email campaign utilizing boards such as Craigslist.com and others to awaken the flying public to our peril is a good start. Perhaps we could all create fliers and post them at every public location we can find.
If you have any ideas, let me know, I am willing to try.
I'm no longer an active CFI, but I do support the cause. I tried to start a website a few years ago to help CFI's, but it was too large of a job for one person with limited skills to complete.
Something needs to be done, and that will only happen if we work together. Let me know if you have any ideas.
My latest idea is to let the public know how poorly pilots are being paid. Perhaps if the general public realized that many pilots are near poverty wages and many have to take second jobs which leaves them tired and fatigued, then maybe they would not want to do business with those companies. If they knew how many companies hire inexperienced pilots in order to pay very low wages, maybe the public would realize that our problem is their problem too.
Perhaps a massive ad and email campaign utilizing boards such as Craigslist.com and others to awaken the flying public to our peril is a good start. Perhaps we could all create fliers and post them at every public location we can find.
If you have any ideas, let me know, I am willing to try.
Last edited by daytonaflyer; 02-28-2006 at 09:25 PM.
02-28-2006, 09:57 PM
#16
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Done
Originally Posted by daytonaflyer
Nealsapilot,
I'm no longer an active CFI, but I do support the cause. I tried to start a website a few years ago to help CFI's, but it was too large of a job for one person with limited skills to complete.
Something needs to be done, and that will only happen if we work together. Let me know if you have any ideas.
My latest idea is to let the public know how poorly pilots are being paid. Perhaps if the general public realized that many pilots are near poverty wages and many have to take second jobs which leaves them tired and fatigued, then maybe they would not want to do business with those companies. If they knew how many companies hire inexperienced pilots in order to pay very low wages, maybe the public would realize that our problem is their problem too.
Perhaps a massive ad and email campaign utilizing boards such as Craigslist.com and others to awaken the flying public to our peril is a good start. Perhaps we could all create fliers and post them at every public location we can find.
If you have any ideas, let me know, I am willing to try.
I'm no longer an active CFI, but I do support the cause. I tried to start a website a few years ago to help CFI's, but it was too large of a job for one person with limited skills to complete.
Something needs to be done, and that will only happen if we work together. Let me know if you have any ideas.
My latest idea is to let the public know how poorly pilots are being paid. Perhaps if the general public realized that many pilots are near poverty wages and many have to take second jobs which leaves them tired and fatigued, then maybe they would not want to do business with those companies. If they knew how many companies hire inexperienced pilots in order to pay very low wages, maybe the public would realize that our problem is their problem too.
Perhaps a massive ad and email campaign utilizing boards such as Craigslist.com and others to awaken the flying public to our peril is a good start. Perhaps we could all create fliers and post them at every public location we can find.
If you have any ideas, let me know, I am willing to try.
SkyHigh
03-11-2006, 02:17 PM
#17
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2005
Position: XJT F/O
Posts: 144
That is the real problem in this industry. Nobody cares anymore what the pilots that are flying the plane are paid as long as they can afford to do it. I know of people that were planning trips to far away destinations with the family, well these were the ones that could afford to do this given the national economy nowadays. Anyways they decided to drive the 1500 or more miles with the family in a car because it was cheaper then flying there. What does this tell you; I think it says that people only care about what they have to pay for something, not what the person involved in getting the product to them was paid.
Another way to look at this is to think about the last time you went to walmart. When you went there did you care about who and how much that person who made the item you bought was paid, or the person who rang the item up, the stocker who put it on the shelf, the truck driver who drove it to the store, the warehouse person who moved the item around a warehouse several times. No, as long as it was affordable and available. Nobody cares anymore, as long as they think they are getting it cheaper.
Another way to look at this is to think about the last time you went to walmart. When you went there did you care about who and how much that person who made the item you bought was paid, or the person who rang the item up, the stocker who put it on the shelf, the truck driver who drove it to the store, the warehouse person who moved the item around a warehouse several times. No, as long as it was affordable and available. Nobody cares anymore, as long as they think they are getting it cheaper.
03-21-2006, 06:18 PM
#18
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Speeder
Originally Posted by preludespeeder
That is the real problem in this industry. Nobody cares anymore what the pilots that are flying the plane are paid as long as they can afford to do it. I know of people that were planning trips to far away destinations with the family, well these were the ones that could afford to do this given the national economy nowadays. Anyways they decided to drive the 1500 or more miles with the family in a car because it was cheaper then flying there. What does this tell you; I think it says that people only care about what they have to pay for something, not what the person involved in getting the product to them was paid.
Another way to look at this is to think about the last time you went to walmart. When you went there did you care about who and how much that person who made the item you bought was paid, or the person who rang the item up, the stocker who put it on the shelf, the truck driver who drove it to the store, the warehouse person who moved the item around a warehouse several times. No, as long as it was affordable and available. Nobody cares anymore, as long as they think they are getting it cheaper.
Another way to look at this is to think about the last time you went to walmart. When you went there did you care about who and how much that person who made the item you bought was paid, or the person who rang the item up, the stocker who put it on the shelf, the truck driver who drove it to the store, the warehouse person who moved the item around a warehouse several times. No, as long as it was affordable and available. Nobody cares anymore, as long as they think they are getting it cheaper.
When did consumers ever care? Do you think about every purchase that you make? Did you research the peanut better company before you paid for it? We live in a capitalist society and thankfully so.
SkyHigh
04-09-2006, 12:17 AM
#19
Line Holder
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: CL-65
Posts: 44
Nealsapilot,
I completely agree with you. From personal experience, I can tell you that you will get more students when you charge a higher fee. Sounds weird, but customers see you more as a professional.
The trick is too BE PROFESSIONAL, after all, we are PROFESSIONALS! Stop wearing that torn up T-shirt and the pair of shorts you wear (no, not you personally, but I see CFI's do this all the time) and a worn pair of sneakers.
Wear slacks, a nice polo, behave and act like a pro. Especially when you build experience and become more experienced in a wide variety of airplanes, more ratings, a gold seal CFI ticket, etc, you can charge a higher fee in much the same way EVERY other professional increases his/her hourly rate. Compare an attorney starting out with one with experience under his/her belt.
I charged $35 per hour, both ground and flight and had more students than I could handle. A fellow CFI that was also a Designee, charged $50 per hour and had to send people away!!! I now live in the Midwest where people don't have a lot of money. Yet I know that the local CFI charges $43 an hour here and people come to him from all over the country. Now, I do realize that you can't immediately, after having just obtained your licenses and ratings, start billing your self out at $35 per hour, but you CAN start out with charging $20 per hour.
In my humble opinion, even $35 per hour is not enough, especially if you compare your hourly rate with that of the local lock and key smith, golf pro or plumber. Truck Drivers make more money than we do as CFI's and Regional Pilot's. It's not unheard off to make $50K as a Truck Driver. Think about that.
Once you renew your ticket with the local FSDO and get a gold seal ticket, advertise it, use it and charge for it. A gold seal ticket probably doesn't impress any other CFI or me, but it does impress your clients!
I charged right from the minute my customer came in the door. Time is money and both your time as well as your customers are valuable. Charge for ground school, pre and post briefings. Charge for the time you are out at the ramp with your student while he/she is preflighting the airplane!
Stop saying, well, we did 1 hr of ground and .6 of pre and post briefing, but I'll charge you for .5 only... I've heard so many CFI's do just that. Don't give away your expertise for free. You didn't get it for free either. You paid for that and worked hard for it!
Show up ON TIME for your appointment. If your student can show up on time, you can too. Do not smoke a cigarette while on your student’s time, BS with one of your fellow pilots or the customer or otherwise waste away your time and your students time as you can't charge for that.
We do not cater to people with no money. Most people wanting to get a license have money. Too bad for the few that don't such as Rich. There are ways for those people nowadays (credit card, pilotfinance.com, sally mae, etc)
Go out there and market your self. You're most likely an independent contractor. You ARE RUNNING your OWN business. So RUN it like a business! Don't just hang out at the pilot lounge watching satellite TV. I don't know of ANY other job where you can watch TV while being on the clock! Very unprofessional! Pick up the phone, leave biz card around, talk to the local colleges, become a chamber of commerce member, get a press release, sell books, headsets, etc. Many way's to make good money as a CFI. You can actually, if you so desire, make a career out of instructing.
Become a member of the National Association of Flight Instructors, NAFI. Good organization. I did. Back then, NAFI send me a book called "The savy flight instructor". I learned a LOT from that. It goes a lot further than what I mentioned. It shows you how to run it like a business. It was an eye opener for me, and adopting their philosophy, made me able to pay my bills.
Another good organization is AOPA. Become a member, use them and contact them. Ask them for advice. They have a lot of tools out there for the CFI including a good video that also teaches you how to run instructing like a business and have fun and make money and fly while doing it.
Just to give you an indication and let you know it's possible, I made in my last year (2003) of instructing, $42K
I completely agree with you. From personal experience, I can tell you that you will get more students when you charge a higher fee. Sounds weird, but customers see you more as a professional.
The trick is too BE PROFESSIONAL, after all, we are PROFESSIONALS! Stop wearing that torn up T-shirt and the pair of shorts you wear (no, not you personally, but I see CFI's do this all the time) and a worn pair of sneakers.
Wear slacks, a nice polo, behave and act like a pro. Especially when you build experience and become more experienced in a wide variety of airplanes, more ratings, a gold seal CFI ticket, etc, you can charge a higher fee in much the same way EVERY other professional increases his/her hourly rate. Compare an attorney starting out with one with experience under his/her belt.
I charged $35 per hour, both ground and flight and had more students than I could handle. A fellow CFI that was also a Designee, charged $50 per hour and had to send people away!!! I now live in the Midwest where people don't have a lot of money. Yet I know that the local CFI charges $43 an hour here and people come to him from all over the country. Now, I do realize that you can't immediately, after having just obtained your licenses and ratings, start billing your self out at $35 per hour, but you CAN start out with charging $20 per hour.
In my humble opinion, even $35 per hour is not enough, especially if you compare your hourly rate with that of the local lock and key smith, golf pro or plumber. Truck Drivers make more money than we do as CFI's and Regional Pilot's. It's not unheard off to make $50K as a Truck Driver. Think about that.
Once you renew your ticket with the local FSDO and get a gold seal ticket, advertise it, use it and charge for it. A gold seal ticket probably doesn't impress any other CFI or me, but it does impress your clients!
I charged right from the minute my customer came in the door. Time is money and both your time as well as your customers are valuable. Charge for ground school, pre and post briefings. Charge for the time you are out at the ramp with your student while he/she is preflighting the airplane!
Stop saying, well, we did 1 hr of ground and .6 of pre and post briefing, but I'll charge you for .5 only... I've heard so many CFI's do just that. Don't give away your expertise for free. You didn't get it for free either. You paid for that and worked hard for it!
Show up ON TIME for your appointment. If your student can show up on time, you can too. Do not smoke a cigarette while on your student’s time, BS with one of your fellow pilots or the customer or otherwise waste away your time and your students time as you can't charge for that.
We do not cater to people with no money. Most people wanting to get a license have money. Too bad for the few that don't such as Rich. There are ways for those people nowadays (credit card, pilotfinance.com, sally mae, etc)
Go out there and market your self. You're most likely an independent contractor. You ARE RUNNING your OWN business. So RUN it like a business! Don't just hang out at the pilot lounge watching satellite TV. I don't know of ANY other job where you can watch TV while being on the clock! Very unprofessional! Pick up the phone, leave biz card around, talk to the local colleges, become a chamber of commerce member, get a press release, sell books, headsets, etc. Many way's to make good money as a CFI. You can actually, if you so desire, make a career out of instructing.
Become a member of the National Association of Flight Instructors, NAFI. Good organization. I did. Back then, NAFI send me a book called "The savy flight instructor". I learned a LOT from that. It goes a lot further than what I mentioned. It shows you how to run it like a business. It was an eye opener for me, and adopting their philosophy, made me able to pay my bills.
Another good organization is AOPA. Become a member, use them and contact them. Ask them for advice. They have a lot of tools out there for the CFI including a good video that also teaches you how to run instructing like a business and have fun and make money and fly while doing it.
Just to give you an indication and let you know it's possible, I made in my last year (2003) of instructing, $42K
Last edited by 1013dot25hPa; 04-09-2006 at 01:12 AM.
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