Career Advice (Paralysis by Analysis)
 

Hello,

I am currently 23 years old, graduated from UCSD with a bachelor's in Psychology, and am currently working as an analyst for a company. I had a few questions that I was hoping to get some opinions on.

1) (Incoming Broad question!) How receptive is the airline industry ( in its current state) of pilots of my age/background? I have read that first years are paid around $20k, but have also been told that after around 15 years of flying for an airline the salary jumps substantially to around $150k. Does this/Will this still hold true in the near future?

2) One of my local flight training schols (www.sdfti.com) quoted that it would probably cost about $10-$15k to get my Private Pilot's license. I know that recreational flying would just be way too expensive for me, so I am reluctant to spend that much money. I feel that the only viable solution to satiate my desire to fly would be to go career. I have the passion to fly, but have always been very meticulous about what I spend on. Should I still get my Private License regardless?

3) Does anyone know of any good schools in San Diego I should look into? (that won't destroy my wallet =D )

4) Do airlines value training at local flight schools less than training from a university or college?

5) As an airline pilot, are you constantly flying flight after flight, or do you have opportunities to explore your flight destinations a bit?

6) My main hangup with fully committing to being a career pilot is the extensive time away from home/family. Being that I am only 23, it is not much of an issue, but looking further down the line, are there alternative positions that are open to pilots that afford more "consistent" schedules where you would not be away from home as much (ie: ATC?)? If so, is that transition expensive/complicated?

Sorry to smack you guys with a wall of text there. I hope some of it made some sense! Thanks for any and all your comments!

Welcome to the forums!

Try the search feature and prepare to do some reading. There have been many many similar threads, and the reply's offer good insight.

The industry is in a huge down cycle and many companies are furloughing pilots or have ceased operation.

Current Pay Charts are on the main site: http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com

ATC is a whole different career path. You're a government employee with all the +s and -s.

As HSLD said there are plenty of historical threads on this, but I'll chip in since you're in SD, and because advice given on the forum 6 months might not apply with today's oil prices...

1) The industy's receptiveness to pilots of any experience level depends on supply and demand. In some cases (2005-2007) there is a very high demand for pilots to work at the entry level for low wages. For a few years in the late 60's major airlines actually hired very low-time pilots off the street.

However...there is NEVER a shortage of qualified applicants for good airline jobs. Quite the opposite, when you are qualified to even apply you will be competing with literally thousands of other experienced and qualified pilots.

Currently most airlines are furloughing or not hiring. This means that many CFI's will be staying put for several years...when hiring resumes, they will have 2000-3000 hours. You could have got hired in 2007 with 300 (three hundred) hours...but when hiring picks up in 2011 (or whenever), competetive minimums are likely to be in the thousands, with plenty of ME time.

Also if you look at airline websites, they will specify minimum flight experience to apply...usually this is NOT enough to competetive (the last few years were an exception). You need to network or ask around online to find out what the real competetive mins are.

$150K in 15 years is possible, but by no means guaranteed. You would have to get hired as a regional FO, upgrade to CA, then get hired at a major. If you get a job with SWA, FDX, or UPS you might make $150K as an FO...at any other major, you would probably need to upgrade to CA, which would take longer than 15 years. The best jobs are the most competetive, so there are no guarantees. The majority of today's regional pilots will probably stay in the regionals for life, or leave the industry when the realize their situation is hopeless. The fact that you went to UCSD might mean that you are smart and motivated, which will help you advance.

2) I would personally avoid sdfti. They did not have the best (or worst) reputation in SD. They have had two crashes (one multiple-fatality) in the last week, and I would be concerned that the lawsuits might create financial problems for them. Note: NEVER, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES WHATSOEVER deposit a large amount of money with any flight school. Often they will ask for the full price of your training up front. They will then use YOUR money to cover current operating expenses, and HOPE that they get another sucker to lay down some more cash in the future to cover YOUR training. When the next student does not materialize, the school goes BK and you are left with a huge debt. Never deposit more than $1-2K, make weekly payments if needed.

3) Look at other schools in SD, SAA at KSEE (Scanavia) or Pinnacle at KCRQ (Flight Training, Aircraft Rental and Cessna Pilot Center). I can vouch for SAA, and know people who have worked at pinnacle.

4) Airlines don't care where you got your flight training, unless it was in the military, which will put you at a significant advantage. In fact, a couple of the university programs have developed reputations for producing egotistical young pilots whose inflated self-worth is in no way supported by the reality of their abilities. You should probably pay about $35K ballpark for all ratings through CFI/CFII...there is NO value-added for costs much in excess of that. Actually you might have to allow more due to rising fuel prices.

5) It depends on the airline. Regionals do little or no all-night flying (although you might have a very short break of 3-5 hours). SWA does no night-shifts that I know of, FDX and UPS do a lot. If nights are a problem for you, you can probably avoid doing it for most of your career.

6) ATC is not a pilot job, it's a whole seperate thing. At any airline you can volunteer for training for management jobs where you have a "day job" and then go fly occasionally (once or twice a month maybe). As long as you live in the domicile where training is performed you can probably get into that eventually. Downside: You may not have many days off. As a line pilot, you can also bid trips which minimize nights away from home (ie "local" trips where you return home each evening).

DISCLAIMER: The industry is in a big downturn. Historically this has been cyclical, so you could start your training now and expect that hiring would resume in a few years, right about the time you have 2000 hours as a CFI. However...the price of oil (or a suitable alternative) MUST come down before the industry recovers. There is no obvious guarantee that there will even be a recovery. Personally I would have a hard time justify the training expense to attempt to enter the industry at this time. make sure you have a backup plan in case flying does not work out.

Before you seriously consider a career, go get a PPL and do some recreational flying...see how much you like it, and if you have the need to fly more and bigger airplanes. Jumping into a career flight training programing is silly if you are not a private pilot.

Thanks for the great info/insight Rick.

My mentality going into this is similar to what you had mentioned before about training while the industry is bad, in hopes of a recovery by the time I accrue enough flight time.

One huge question I had with the furloughs is that, is there ever an instance where airlines prefer newblood versus seasoned pilots? If the majority of the airliners are looking to their pool of furloughed pilots, are the flight schools in danger of being forced to close down due to a greatly reduced volume of prospective pilot trainees? So in theory, the prime time for possible pilots like myself to enter into the business would be years AFTER the industry’s recovery when all the furloughed pilots have been rehired and retired.

It is odd though, the more I look into aviation (both recreationally and professionally) the more it seems like it may be a bad decision. I love the idea of flying, but I am almost scared to try it for fear of loving it.

Also, what you mentioned about SDFTI is interesting. I visited/toured their facilities on the 21st and they were bragging about their safety record! I will definitely check out the other schools you mentioned. Thanks

Hi Kameman, I am also a recent college grad, living now in San Diego as well. IMO avoid San Diego Flight Training International and flight schools in general. KMYF has two flying clubs, Plus One and Golden Wings. These clubs have quality/economical aircraft rentals. The bottom line is you get the same education for less money with a flying club. The best thing you can do is research all the threads posted before (see link on second post) and then give one of these two clubs a call if you choose to go forward after doing your own research. If you do go forward, figure out if you truly love flying because this an industry with little certainty and requires a ton of personal sacrifice.

Rickair, as usual, hit many points dead on. However I'll add this:

I know gas and rental rates are going up, but that estimate is insane. If this is something you're considering, you might want to research some schools in an area where the cost of living is lower.

Also, despite being on the road a lot, I'm averaging 14 days off a month right now. I know it's better than average but how many office workers can claim anything close to that? Not to mention the fact that when I leave work, I leave. No project deadlines, no 80 hour work weeks. I dare say if I had children I'd spend more quality time with them and be more involved in their lives than I ever would with a "real" job.

Historically the industry has been cyclical and those that use the down-cycle to prepare for their next step are often at the head of the line when the feeding frenzy resumes.

Regionals want some level of experience, if they can get it, but usually don't want ex-major pilots. A major pilot will probably not be as happy in the regional world, and will probably go back to his major when recalled. Some regionals will hire furloughed pilots, but may ask you to resign your seniority number at the furlough company.

It's also possible that majors who furlough will negotiate jobs for their pilots at the associated regional(s). These pilots automatically get jobs with no interview, and may start as captains instead of first officers.

Historically most major pilots have done something other than regional flying while on furlough, so they will probably not have a dramatic affect on regional hiring (if there is any regional hiring). Same applies to flight instruction...except that furloughed regional pilots WILL go back to CFI, so there could be a squeeze there if enough regionals furlough.

But the furloughed guys will likely fill up the good corporate and fractional jobs...basically you will probably not have to compete with them for entry-level jobs.


It does not appear to be a very good decision to me either. I made the decisio pre-9/11 under vastly different circumstances.

As a career-changer I could not justify it today. A young person might be able to justify because time is on their side, and they can wait out the bad and hope for a better future in the industry.

I have asked around about getting my PPL from a flying club ( ie: Golden Wings/Plus One) and it hasn't really come highly recommended. Those that i've talked to warn me about possible spotty maintenance schedules, instructors that may up and leave more readily ( for an opening at a major) than if they taught at a flight school, and a few other bits. I love the idea that the cost is a bit cheaper, but is it worth the discounted price?

Nobody is going anywhere right now. However many flying clubs have instructors that are on a part time basis because they have other "real" jobs or are career instructors. On the other hand, most "pilot factories" will almost always have high turnover during hiring booms.

I think I've decided on holding off on looking much deeper into going "career" with flying until I've taking the first actual steps of getting my PPL.

I keep reading around the forum that people are getting their PPLs for on average $10k. I think that if I can get it for about that price (preferably cheaper) I may just go ahead with it.

How does it work with getting instruction from a flight club rather than a flight school? I went to Plus One and Golden Wings (San Diego, CA) and all they had was a list of instructors. What about the groundwork, etc that I was told at the flight school i visited?

I've been browsing through pages of threads and havent been able to find out how flight clubs really work =P. I also put in a request for more info from them, but they havent gotten back to me yet...!

Flight clubs are a more dynamic and less structured environment. You will have to arrange your own ground training. For ground training you have three options:

1) Try to do it with your instructor or possibly another instructor who has the time. This can be tough with freelance instructors because they tend to be busy and often are not accustomed to doing a structured ground program.

2) Find a formal ground course...one of the local community colleges used to do that, the one in kearny mesa I think.

3) Use a self-study course with a workbook. You can buy these at any pilot shop, and they are legal to satisfy the requirement. You would want to make sure your instructor is OK with that, and he will probably want to see the workbook completed. This is a good option if you are an engineer, or technically oriented and have good study habits. Your CFI will review things with you and fill in any gaps.

In addition to ground training that is intended to enhance your knowledge, you will have to take an FAA written test...you will need to prep for this seperately, either with a weekend "cram course" or self-study with a book containing the exam questions.

Plus One is good in that it has 100+ airplanes, so you can pretty much always find a 152 or 172, even if yours breaks at the last minute. There are also a lot of instructors...you would need to exercise some care iin picking one I have a friend who still teaches there, he doesn't do privates any more, but I'll ask him for a couple of names.

Also AFAC is there at Gibbs...it's a small former military flight club that spun off on it's own. The members are all active or ex- military or government types, so the airplanes are treated with respect and maintained well. Also they tend to be on time returning airplanes, or communicate if there's a delay. Last I heard, ANYBODY could join the club as a student pilot...they feel that if they can teach you the right way from day one, that you will fit in with them. They have only high-wing cessnas, and good rates.

I actually have a young relative who wants to start training also...it's possible that I might end up doing groundschool for him. What would your timeline be?

Timeline wise, I'd like to start once I find a good rate on lessons. My availability really falls after 5pm during weekdays and anytime weekends.

So for ground school, I dont necessarily have to take it? I just need to pass the FAA test and am good to go? I would definitely feel more comfortable with formal/informal instruction, but think i can self-teach if the training is expensive.

You have to take SOME sort of ground training, but a self-study course is allowed to count. You will need your CFI to sign-off on your self-study completion, so make sure he is OK with that, and that you have a workbook to show that you actually did something.

The written test is whole different thing, do not confuse this with actual knowledge. For the most part, you just need to review the multiple-choice question bank for a few days, then go take the test. I'd probably do this after you complete your ground training.

or you could just find a small little airport that offers flight instruction in something like a cessna 172 or maybe a piper cherokee, and work 1-on-1 with an instructor instead of dealing with some club or flight school. i got my private ticket for around $6k in a 172 and that was about a year ago.

I am currently trying to get in touch with some CFI's that are members of Plus One Flyers in San Diego. I'm looking in the price range of $35-$45/hr for lessons, and hope to get more info in general on the instructions. The flying club and instructors haven't emailed me back, so I don't know what is going on! I would imagine they would give high priority to prospective students/new club members!

Rick, would you be interested in helping me out with ground training, or reference a good CFI at Montgomery Field? :D

P.S. Thanks by the way for all the info guys.

I called my buddy, hopefully he'll give me some names today. Matching schedules is important...how often do you expect to do training, and would it likely be weekends, weekdays, or evenings?

I work full-time, so my training hours would be anytime after 6pm (weekdays) and all day weekends. I would prefer to knock it out ASAP (to decrease likelihood of forgetting completed training). That may be a bit ambitious, but once I find a CFI that works well for me and a good pricing, I'll want to devote all my time to it.

I talked to my buddy. Looks like you don't have enough posts to pmail...email me your phone number and I'll fill you in (my username at yahoo).

Done. Let me know if you dont get it.

Rick,

I am available any day between the hours of 6pm-9pm Pacific. Thanks!

I'll try to catch you next couple of days, I've been travelling.

R