Airline Pilot Central Forums - Failed Addon Checkride, Help!

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Originally Posted by ryan1234 (Post 440594)

chandelles (to turn around a "candle") are a performance maneuver and should be entered at cruise airspeed and then add full power for max performance. If you think of the original reason behind it... WWI French pilots drop bombs and do a climbing 180 to avoid ground fire (it was also used as a lag pursuit in air to air combat)...most would probably use full power (i.e. full energy) to gain the most altitude while using precise control of airspeed to control radius of the turn. MCA will be a slightly lower airspeed with full power (max performance). If you think of practical application (i.e. turning about in a valley, etc) it may make it easier. As a commercial pilot, generally it's easier to think in terms of energy when doing each maneuver, including soft field landings (i.e. using the ground effect and MDR to land while), short fields.. just control airspeed with AOA and descent with power, combo brings angle to the ground.

The latter practical application you mentioned is why it is on the check ride.

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When I worked in training, if any pilot didn't meet standard, the first place they went to was not the pilot but the instructor. The instructor was debriefed and in some cases, it was the instructor who got an additional ride.

Second, the examiner may have been a dorko also so talking to him may be a waste of time. NO ONE should berate or talk down to someone taking a checkride. No one goes for a checkride expecting to fail and his attitude is also suspect. This happens.

Still, talk to the examiner and ask questions. You should have gotten a full and thorough explanation on every maneuver that didn't meet standard.

AGREED 100% on all points. If you belittle a student about a check ride failure, you should lose your designation. Period. (And, in theory, in-house check airmen who do so at airlines are not allowed to be check airmen-simulator or check airmen-aircraft for much longer... :) )

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I was just trying to help the student ask questions of the instructor and examiner. From the post, it sounds like there wasn't much of a debrief, which you as an instructor knows is where much of the real learning takes place.

I have on occasion (mostly due to urgent other things) received no debriefing for a lesson, but we made sure to make up for the lack of debrief either on taxi-in or at the start of the next lesson...****** happens. But you're entitled to a thorough briefing and debriefing every time.

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Originally Posted by usmc-sgt (Post 441136)

So you failed a checkride..big deal old news.

What can you do about it? Nothing.

What can you do about the re-check, now we are in business.

Go out and have a beer and have a good time, hit the PTS and fly hard and do your very best on the next checkride to knock it out of the park (which statistics show the re-checks have a VERY high success rate.)

Failing a checkride is a bummer but no sense hanging on the moment. Some advice I can give for doing many checkrides with different DPES who all have their own odd quirks is: When they ask you why you did _____ a certain way tell them its how you were taught and ask them how they would do it. They will typically gladly show you and then you tell them how great it was and how you will adopt that as your new savior in all that is holy in the flying world. Examiners dont want to be argued with or have even the slightest hint of attitude. Say you will change everything you know and do and adopt their techniques because the clouds have opened up and the sun hath shown down from the heavens and the good lord above showed you the way to chandelle righteousness.

Sorry about the pink slip...what kind of beer are you having tonight?

Sounds like military flight training :D:eek:

I wouldn't get your hopes down about this. It sucks but it is what it is. Move on and do better the next time.

Yeah, it sounds like your instructor did you wrong by not pulling out the books and brushing up on his technique. However...

You are a Commercial pilot already. You do need to take some control of your training. When an instructor teaches, ask them for a reference or picture, something you can refer back to later to study on your own.

I don't think it's right to belittle a student on a checkride, but examiners are usually a little crusty. They may gripe and moan and get after you in the plane the entire flight and then say you did fine on the ground. That comes with the territory so be warned. Not saying it's right, but it does happen. I also think the examiner was expecting more from you. He knew you had already earned a Commercial and were just adding on the SE. So fair or not, he expected you to demonstrate the appropriate level of knowledge and became frustrated when that didn't happen. Like others have said, speak up, ask lots of questions, get reference material, and prep on your own in addition to what the instructor gives you. At this point you know how to do that. You will be fine, now you know what's coming. Better to be overprepared than under.

What aircraft were you flying? SR20?

I'm confused...you say that you're a commercial pilot with a Multi-engine rating and that you are doing your single engine add-on...didn't you have to do these manuvers when you got your ME??

Z

Quote: very well known flight university.

I assume this is a Part 141 school. You need to talk to the Chief Flight Instructor about this. At 141 schools everything you learn should be standardized. I think they owe it to you to retrain you in the maneuvers at their own expense and request a change of instructor as he/she sounds incompetent.

That sounds well and good, but I have an issue with it. At many 141 schools, there is no provision for recurrent and refresher maneuvers practice other than the 12 month requirement. We used to have guys who got their CFI but had no commercial students for 3-6 months. It happened to me. How can you demo maneuvers you haven't practiced in a complex airplane when you fly every day to make ends meet. The school is responsible, but the instructor may have been caught in a system that kept him from being fresh.

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Originally Posted by the King (Post 448274)

Right on, and this is why I am not hard nosed about less than fabulous teaching skills of those instructors attempting to teach commercial students after untold months of not having such a student. All I ask is they know what they are supposed to be showing, even if they can't nail it due to lack of recent practice. So, if an instructor is using air time to reread the PTS then I think they should do that kind of thing at home. But if they are rusty due to lack of practice, then well maybe the student should try and realize that not many commercial students come by in a given year. I do not see any shame in the instructor being honest about this up front, either. I see check-level instructors where I work that do not really know what the PTS says on some of the maneuvers. My own commercial instructor was badly out of practice on the maneuvers and I suspect he actually had never had a commercial student before me. That's one thing, but to not mention this is a disservice to the student. Both parties need to realize the commercial certificate is a special in this way and make adjustments for it.