DAL4EVER

Solo+PIC+DUAL received+SIC = TT. Instruction as dual given is still PIC and is separate. SE+ME=TT. If those don't add up it will be uncomfortable in the interview as a lot of time will be taken up trying to explain the flight time vs. answering interview questions. Trust me, its worth the effort to make sure they jive. I had a careless instructor miss add flight time when I was a student pilot. When I was preparing for a regional job years ago I spent a month going through two logbooks trying to find the problem. Once resolved however, Solo+PIC+SIC+Dual Received = TT and there was never an issue at any interview I've had.

floridaCFII

I don't understand this math... how is that supposed to equal to TT? For example, the vast majority of instrument and commercial students are logging both PIC and Dual for their training. That alone will prevent that calculation from working.

For example, my logbook has these approx. numbers:

Solo: 50
PIC: 350
SIC: 0
Dual: 250
TT: 450

Doing your calculation puts my combined time at 200 hours over my TT, because a good part of my PIC was during training and is also logged as Dual.

Maybe I'm just not understanding what you're saying, but I can't figure out how all those numbers would add up to TT for anyone?

floridaCFII

We've had instrutors from my school get hired by most of the regionals with their student time logged this way (not to be confused with CFI time... no CFI's log anything to do with the sims, unless it's for their own currency). The student logs Sim and Dual, and nothing else (no X/C, no TT, etc).

The interesting thing is our FSDO people tell us that you're supposed to log the FTD time in the Dual column, and then subtract it out when you do the 8710. Just goes to show you that depending on who you ask (even/especially with the FAA), you'll always get 5 different answers

DAL4EVER

That's fine. They're getting hired at regionals for doing this. Back in the day though, I was told DAL and other majors didn't want that. My point is that when you're time comes and you are trying to be one of a couple of hundred guys out of 25,000 looking to get hired at a major that year, do you want a clerk reviewing flight times to not be able to add yours? They don't have time to sit and figure out why? They move on to the next one. Maybe they will review yours, maybe not. All I can tell you is that this is what I was told years ago and it worked for me. You are trying to stand out in an interview in a good way.

To get hired right now at a regional takes a pulse and not much else. They are desperate for guys even with some of them slowing down. The major interview is a totally different ballgame. They can afford to be picky and perceived errors in a logbook tell them right away you don't have a detail for accuracy. It won't matter to them that the logging of flight time may have been correct. You may not even make it to the interview to find that out.

Remember, this logging of 50 to 100 extra hours of PIC now seems like a lot but won't matter later when it really counts. That's all I'm sayin'.

floridaCFII

Huh? Maybe we're just saying the same thing in different ways. No one is logging PIC time in the sim... it's logged as Sim and Dual.

I'm still trying to figure out how Solo+PIC+SIC+Dual would ever equal TT. I would think that would be higher than TT for everyone due to logging PIC and Dual for most of your flight training (completely setting aside the question about sims for a minute).

usmc-sgt

Typically its not an issue. If you have to ask..you dont have enough hours.

By the time most are looking for a solid job (does that even exist?) your 100 hours of dual recieved and maybe 20 of sim time are the needle in the haystack of your multi thousands of hours.

DAL4EVER

Okay, let me see if I can break it down this way. Technically you can log PIC while getting dual in a category of plane you are already qualified on. I have the PIC 767 Type Rating but I am an SIC. On the flights when I am flying the aircraft I am still logging SIC time because I did not sign for the aircraft. I am fully qualified on and could act as PIC pending a line check. The question the interviewers will ask is how can you have two PICs on the same flight deck. In court this has bit some instructors who were involved with accidents. It is also the reason that when you upgrade, you cannot log OE as PIC until completion of the OE. The Check Airman is technically PIC during OE even though you are both rated as Captains. While receiving dual, I would log it as such because the instructor is the one who is in charge of the aircraft and as such he is the true PIC. Do what you want when logging PIC time, but as USMC stated, when you get to the point that you're interviewing at a major, 100 PIC hours during dual received won't mean as much as you trying to explain to an interviewer how you had two PICs at once on an airplane.

Log however you want. I am just trying to keep you out of a bind someday. Also, I would rather make a correction at 500 or 1000 TT when you haven't filled out an entire logbook than on the last page of your current logbook just prior to attending the interview. Interviewers look for accuracy and attention to detail. Any chance they find to see how you explain something opens the door to them not liking your answer.

floridaCFII

So what you're saying is that you don't think an Instrument or Commercial, or even CFI/I student should log both Dual and PIC? If so, that's an interpretation of the regs I've never seen before. The way I understand things, in a Part 61 or 141 training environment, both the CFI and the student will log PIC, as long as the student is rated for the aircraft.

DAL4EVER

That's how it was explained to me years ago. It was the whole 'two PICs" in one airplane thing. If you look at my four logbooks now you can add up any page and see where SOLO+PIC+SIC+DUAL REC = TT. In the interview it took them 30 seconds to do the math. They were happy and so was I. The interviewers don't have time to take your word and then try and go back to make sure all Dual Rec. was added appropriately. Interpret it how you want, I just know that if you want a major job the easier your interview is and the fewer questions that result from uncertainty on you the better you will be. Not all of your friends will make it to a major, in fact one in ten of your instructor buds will. Don't do what they do necessarily. But then again, I'm just sayin'. I don't know if my advice is accurate, but I sailed through the logbook portion of several interviews that way. If you want the major job, I'd love for you to get it. Trust me, adding thrust for takeoff on a heavy 767 is everything you think it will be and more. Fuel Flows of 19000 pounds per side, per hour is like nothing you've done. But to feel it, you need to get here. And that means having everything - perfect.

Cheers.

Rawhide16

Straight from the regs:

(h) Logging training time. (1) A person may log training time when that person receives training from an authorized instructor in an aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device.
(2) The training time must be logged in a logbook and must:
(i) Be endorsed in a legible manner by the authorized instructor; and
(ii) Include a description of the training given, the length of the training lesson, and the authorized instructor's signature, certificate number, and certificate expiration date