Airline Pilot Central Forums

Airline Pilot Central Forums (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/)
-   Flight Schools and Training (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/flight-schools-training/)
-   -   Should you apply just because you are qualified? (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/flight-schools-training/31915-should-you-apply-just-because-you-qualified.html)

PearlPilot 10-04-2008 05:33 PM

Should you apply just because you are qualified?
 
A few months ago when some regionals were hiring pilots with no flight time, all they needed was a CPL. But "should" individuals with 200TT apply for these jobs just because they meet the minimum qualifications? To be a well-rounded, and competent pilot, shouldn't you have to be a lot more qualified? After all if you are flying people, shouldn't you be a little more concerned about your skill level? How can you tell how good/bad of a pilot you are when you have only 200TT? I would like to hear both sides of this issue...and let me just leave it at that.

Pilotpip 10-04-2008 05:43 PM

A few months ago you weren't competing with a couple thousand furloughed pilots with more than enough time, type ratings and 121 experience.

Arguement is kind of moot, at least for a while.

Slice 10-04-2008 06:05 PM

Well, what kind of pilot do you want to be? I feel sorry for guys that went from 0 time to a CRJ in 6-9 months. There's a ton of great flying outside of airline operations. When I look back on my career so far having flown Cessna 150's to F-16's to 747's, my fondest memories are all before I became an airline pilot. Instructing, corporate, single pilot IFR ops, etc. While I love airline flying, it's pretty boring compared to previous jobs. I learned a lot and miss the flying and people I met along the way. That's something you can't put a price on. Enjoy the ride because life's too short!

Cubdriver 10-05-2008 05:42 AM


Originally Posted by Slice (Post 473649)
Well, what kind of pilot do you want to be? I feel sorry for guys that went from 0 time to a CRJ in 6-9 months. There's a ton of great flying outside of airline operations. When I look back on my career so far having flown Cessna 150's to F-16's to 747's, my fondest memories are all before I became an airline pilot. Instructing, corporate, single pilot IFR ops, etc. While I love airline flying, it's pretty boring compared to previous jobs. I learned a lot and miss the flying and people I met along the way. That's something you can't put a price on. Enjoy the ride because life's too short!

I haven't made it to airlines for this very reason. Two years ago I was hot on the idea and some of my friends made it to Expressjet while things were still good. But soon thereafter everything went south, and at this point at the forecast looks terrible and I am not sure at this point that I will ever go. The industry turns up and turns down, but fuel costs and the recession are tougher this time than before. In the meantime, it's lots of fun towing gliders, flying skydivers, and flight instructing. I actually fly the airline guys out at the gliderport and skydive outfit sometimes on their days off.

SmoothOnTop 10-05-2008 06:39 AM

As long as we don't attempt tax our way out of this recession (it won't work), the strong demand for airline pilots will return in about 4 years...

PiperPower 10-08-2008 09:14 PM

I have a friend who is on the CRJ at Mesaba, and I was talking to him about this today. Here's what he told me; It's all about seniority. If you can get into an airline with low-time, then do it. I was curious about the respect factor from the captains at these airlines and I asked my buddy about that. If you know your stuff there is no reason for them to not respect you, and there is no reason for you to not apply.

However, there are low-timer kids who shouldn't have their hands on a Seminole let alone a CRJ. If you go into a job like this completely unprepared, then you're going to be a burden on everyone you fly with and it wont be fun for you or the guys you fly with. So figure out which one you are and act accordingly.

With all that said, there are a ton of guys out on furlough right now at multiple regionals. Don't expect these airlines to set their minimums to a commercial-multi ticket anytime soon.

Ja189 10-09-2008 01:53 PM

What is the difference in a Cessna 172 pilot with 5000 hours and one with 200 hours when teaching them to fly an RJ. Answer: none!

USMCFLYR 10-09-2008 06:27 PM


Originally Posted by Ja189 (Post 476367)
What is the difference in a Cessna 172 pilot with 5000 hours and one with 200 hours when teaching them to fly an RJ. Answer: none!

Really? In my experience I would have to disagree. I would think that the 5000 hr guy would have a bit more air sense and SA about him than a 200 hr guy. Most of the students that I fly with have about 230-260 hrs starting out (those that we call CAT I). CAT II students come from a different community (sometimes even helos) and may have thousands of hours. They are both flying a new airplane for the first time, but the couple of thousand hour guy certainly has an advantage in the SA, DM, CM, AD/FX parts of CRM at a minimum.

USMCFLYR

250 or point 65 10-09-2008 07:01 PM

Don't get your undies in a bundle about this guy. He's just commenting on every thread with some line that makes less sense than a "free cialis, viagra" email.

fr33 c1ali$ womin likes more th@an too 1nchs moaning

Ja189 10-17-2008 09:15 PM

I learned the RJ with 325 hours maybe 100 of that dual given. 5000 hours not necessary! I once had a 20k plus hour retired Air Force pilot explain aircraft transitions to me like this "A plane is a plane is a plane!" As far as CRM goes there is absolutely no CRM in a Cessna that would prepare you for an RJ.

Slice 10-17-2008 11:02 PM


Originally Posted by Ja189 (Post 481179)
I learned the RJ with 325 hours maybe 100 of that dual given. 5000 hours not necessary! I once had a 20k plus hour retired Air Force pilot explain aircraft transitions to me like this "A plane is a plane is a plane!" As far as CRM goes there is absolutely no CRM in a Cessna that would prepare you for an RJ.

You can't teach judgment and at 325 hours you ain't got much. I'll take the high time guy 99/100 times.

ryan1234 10-18-2008 06:36 AM

What is the average amount of hours that a guy who graduates from UPT has when going to fly right seat in a KC-135,C-17 or any other heavy aircraft?

atpwannabe 10-18-2008 09:08 AM

This was my post down in the Pilot Lounge and the thread is "Leaving the Career".


Originally Posted by SkyHigh
..... It seems to me that the only thing of value that we have left is the ability to sell ourselves out over the next pilot. And that is not a very good position to be in.

SkyHigh




If that is the case, and it seems as though that's what's going to occur for & over the next 3-5 years.....just thinking out loud.....why not go to a Gulfstream or some other PFT and get the turbo-prop experience that is so highly sought after to better position myself when the dust/debris clears?

Given the current economic situation, is this a viable option for some now? The comment was made earlier that regionals aren't going to be lowering their minimums to CPL/ME any time soon and with so many guys that are furloughed people like me who are starting out and as old as I am, (46yrs old), may have a hard road to hoe!!!




atp

WmuGrad07 10-18-2008 11:22 AM


Originally Posted by Ja189 (Post 476367)
What is the difference in a Cessna 172 pilot with 5000 hours and one with 200 hours when teaching them to fly an RJ. Answer: none!

I'm going to have to disagree on that one. It matters on a personal level for one, and for two a 200 hr pilot barely has his willy wet and wouldn't have a clue what to do when the captain goes to take a leak is left all alone. A 200 hr pilot doesn't even know what solo imc is like 9/10 times let alone going into the flight levels or going 250+knots.

A commercial part 91 job doing survey work, traffic watch (maybe), Flight instructing, something that gets someone PIC time, will make them a better pilot. You don't need 5000 hrs to fly as an effect crew member in a CRJ, 1000 hrs would be fine, and if you could get on with some company at 500 hrs you may be ok (going back to the personal thing). Anything less than 400 is kinda crazy I believe for any 121 op. It doesn't matter the training someone goes through to get in the right seat. Time as pic gives someone ADM skills. I never thought I would say it, but instructing really does teach the instructor more about aviation than they thought they knew...

This will become an interesting thread.

Slice 10-18-2008 11:46 AM


Originally Posted by ryan1234 (Post 481306)
What is the average amount of hours that a guy who graduates from UPT has when going to fly right seat in a KC-135,C-17 or any other heavy aircraft?

Don't even try and compare military screening and training to 90 days at ATP and then RJ ground school. I'll clue you in though, 300 hour UPT grads don't know much either.

atpwannabe 10-18-2008 12:39 PM


Originally Posted by Ja189 (Post 481179)
I learned the RJ with 325 hours maybe 100 of that dual given. 5000 hours not necessary! I once had a 20k plus hour retired Air Force pilot explain aircraft transitions to me like this "A plane is a plane is a plane!" As far as CRM goes there is absolutely no CRM in a Cessna that would prepare you for an RJ.


I disagree. The specifics may differ, however the framework or format is the same; and that's to avoid an accident/incident.


atp

Ja189 10-19-2008 07:56 AM

Did you really just say that the framework or the format of CRM in an RJ is the same as that in a Cessna. Wow!! That is all I am going to say on that one. Further, I think all of you making the position that a person who needs more than a few hundred hours to fly an RJ are merely attempting to make yourself feel better about the fact that we just sit there and let the autopilot do all the work. For the guy who commented that a 350 hour pilot wouldn't know what to do with an RJ if the Captain went to the bathroom, allow me to ask, how hard is it to sit there and monitor the instruments and work the radios for the Capt.? Lets not b.s here, the autopilot does the work, we are merely systems managers and you don't need a lot of time to do that. I don't care who you are or where you got your training, first time you sat right seat in a jet you wouldn't be safe without the Captain. Now lets just acquiesce once and for all that you don't need much time to do what you do. Suck it up throw the pride out the door and realize it doesn't take a maverick to do your job. It is fine with me.

atpwannabe 10-19-2008 09:04 AM


Originally Posted by Ja189 (Post 481839)
Did you really just say that the framework or the format of CRM in an RJ is the same as that in a Cessna. Wow!! That is all I am going to say on that one.



Obviously you read way to much into what I was attempting to convey. Maybe a poor choice of words that didn't clearly convey what I intended say...granted...however, I'll say that the concept or the idea is the same. For instance, say you have two students on a XC flight and they start having engine trouble. While one calls out the engine out emergency check list, the other performs the tasks. This could happen in a SE Cessna or a Duchess, Seminole ect.

That's my point. A crew working as a team to avoid an accident/incident. This should clear up any misunderstanding on your part. Oh btw, subtle insults will get you nowhere as far as I'm concerned.



atp

Slice 10-19-2008 09:52 AM


Originally Posted by Ja189 (Post 481839)
Did you really just say that the framework or the format of CRM in an RJ is the same as that in a Cessna. Wow!! That is all I am going to say on that one. Further, I think all of you making the position that a person who needs more than a few hundred hours to fly an RJ are merely attempting to make yourself feel better about the fact that we just sit there and let the autopilot do all the work. For the guy who commented that a 350 hour pilot wouldn't know what to do with an RJ if the Captain went to the bathroom, allow me to ask, how hard is it to sit there and monitor the instruments and work the radios for the Capt.? Lets not b.s here, the autopilot does the work, we are merely systems managers and you don't need a lot of time to do that. I don't care who you are or where you got your training, first time you sat right seat in a jet you wouldn't be safe without the Captain. Now lets just acquiesce once and for all that you don't need much time to do what you do. Suck it up throw the pride out the door and realize it doesn't take a maverick to do your job. It is fine with me.

How would you know? Aren't you a CFI who has not yet flown 121? Tell you interviewers all that in your airline interview and let us know how it goes...

LivingInMEM 10-19-2008 12:35 PM


Originally Posted by Ja189 (Post 481839)
Did you really just say that the framework or the format of CRM in an RJ is the same as that in a Cessna. Wow!! ...blah...blah....blah...


My 10-yr old daughter shares a common characteristic with young pilots such as this guy, they have no idea how much they don't know. You show your ignorance when you post what you do - hey, we all started out as neophytes, but we didn't all think we knew it all. How naive are you to believe that a 350-hr pilot is no better than a 5000-hr pilot? It's called experience and over a 5,000 hr career, there are bound to be learning experiences along the way. It works for doctors, cops, plumbers, etc,...you learn from experience and a 350-hr pilot has relatively none.

Just because anyone passes IOE for a regional does not mean that he is the real deal. And it also does not mean that he/she isn't actually increasing the workload for the Capt when the chips are down.

As far as your systems monitoring comments go, I am fairly confident I won't want you up front if those systems start going downhill (2 engine flameout, complete loss of electric, etc) or if the weather starts going south (T-storms, unforecast severe icing, low vis down to mins, low vis below mins with a divert required, low vis below mins with gas at or just below bingo and everyone promising that legal wx is just minutes away, etc). When you look at several of the last regional mishaps, in most cases the argument can be made that they would not have occurred with more experienced pilots at the controls (dual engine flameout too slow/too high, takeoff on wrong runway, runway incursion issues). Oh wait, these are things Capts and F/O's wanting to be Capt's concern themselves with - and your comments in no way resemble a Capt's mentality.

It just so happens that AOPA magazine did an article about 0 to RJ right seat in 200 hrs. To that I say, just because it can be done does not mean that it should be done. To the original poster, my criticism is leveled to the people making the hiring decisions. If the norm becomes getting hired at 200 hrs, and you think that you are as good or better than the avg 200 hr pilot, and that is what you want to do - go for it. You boycotting the practice will not change the practice - get hired and focus on becoming the best future Capt you can be.

ryan1234 10-19-2008 01:06 PM


Originally Posted by Slice (Post 481441)
Don't even try and compare military screening and training to 90 days at ATP and then RJ ground school. I'll clue you in though, 300 hour UPT grads don't know much either.

I didn't compare anything... just asked a question.

"300 hour UPT grads" may not "know much" but the gov't sees fit to place them at the controls and futhermore in combat circumstances. My point is that the variable is quality of training.

PearlPilot 10-19-2008 02:10 PM


Originally Posted by LivingInMEM (Post 481958)
To the original poster, my criticism is leveled to the people making the hiring decisions. If the norm becomes getting hired at 200 hrs, and you think that you are as good or better than the avg 200 hr pilot, and that is what you want to do - go for it. You boycotting the practice will not change the practice - get hired and focus on becoming the best future Capt you can be.

I think this is the kind of answer that I was expecting. I know people got hired right after their commercial during the last regional hiring boom. For this, I have to say, ALTHOUGH yes, this is what I want to do (fly professionally)..., by getting hired at a regional with low times, and you think you are up to it, and you go in with the mind set that you want to focus on becoming the best (as you said), it might take away a lot of years of learning, some thorough and well-rounded experience, the opportunity to try out a variety of aircraft (from seaplanes, bi-planes, classics, skates, etc.), and most of all FUN off of your belt. Isn't this what becoming a pilot should be all about? At least for me it is, and I have to say, right now I feel that I wouldn't take the gig, if there ever came a time where regionals would hire low-timers. But, things happen, there are no guarantees in life, so I am willing to keep my options open. But, imagine you are a passenger in really bad weather, and there is a 200 hour first officer at the controls...Do I want to be that first officer? For me, it is absolutely not. To each his own.

Ja189 10-19-2008 05:14 PM

Keep the brilliant comments coming! I love all the responders that basically call me incompetent and then proceed at the same time to tell me what my experience is and how many hours I have without even having the slightest clue as to who I am. A couple of you in your rebuttle made the very point that I was trying to argue while at the same time being too unintelligent to realize you were arguing the same point. Further, I originally stated that I learned the RJ around 350, not that I currently had 350. To the cool guy who commented that he doesn't like the "young guys" like me, I am far from young, and far from inexperienced. My opinion is probably far more valid than yours. False assumptions should be avoided at all costs.

Slice 10-19-2008 05:16 PM


Originally Posted by ryan1234 (Post 481970)
I didn't compare anything... just asked a question.

"300 hour UPT grads" may not "know much" but the gov't sees fit to place them at the controls and futhermore in combat circumstances. My point is that the variable is quality of training.

True, but there is a lot of training after UPT before one is set loose in a fighter or flying trips as a heavy driver up to 9 more months in some aircraft, then home station qual training to boot as a new guy. It's quality and duration of training that makes the difference.

USMCFLYR 10-19-2008 05:23 PM


Originally Posted by Slice (Post 482076)
True, but there is a lot of training after UPT before one is set loose in a fighter or flying trips as a heavy driver up to 9 more months in some aircraft, then home station qual training to boot as a new guy. It's quality and duration of training that makes the difference.

If he means UPT as in just getting your wings then absolutely. If he is meaning once you hit the fleet (or your MWS as the AF would call it) then not necessarily. We send newly completed RAG replacement pilot directly to deployed squadrons sometimes. Last I heard there was a prohibition against someone that was not Level 2 qualified (basically a combat wingman) dropping ordnance in country without a qualified flight lead with him - but none the less they are in combat with around 320-350 hours!
I think that says quite a bit about the quality of training received.

USMCFLYR

LivingInMEM 10-20-2008 08:15 PM


Originally Posted by Ja189 (Post 482074)
Keep the brilliant comments coming! ...then proceed at the same time to tell me what my experience is and how many hours I have without even having the slightest clue as to who I am. ....Further, I originally stated that I learned the RJ around 350, not that I currently had 350. ..... I am far from young, and far from inexperienced. My opinion is probably far more valid than yours. False assumptions should be avoided at all costs.

I can see why you think that an RJ F/O should do nothing more than watch the autopilot and work the radios - your analysis skills are not so much. I would like to know where you were accused of only having 350 hours. By the way, you may be far from young and think you are far from inexperienced, but ....what you say in your posts, well.....? The fact that you would not even consider the role of decision-maker in the cockpit (which is certainly where experience would come into play) and only reference working the radios and watching the autopilot tells me that you certainly have not been exposed to an ATP type ride or LOE in this type of environment - or that is what your posts convey. You can deny it all you want, but you know it's true. There is disdain towards RJ pilots in your posts in this thread that must be rooted somewhere, you may need to work those issues out.

LivingInMEM 10-20-2008 08:17 PM


Originally Posted by USMCFLYR (Post 482079)
I think that says quite a bit about the quality of training received.

USMCFLYR


And, if not more, the quality of our flight leads that they can maintain SA on their own aircraft, the overall situation, AND on their wingman's situation.

Ja189 10-22-2008 05:58 PM

Wow, LivinginMem your response makes no sense and argues against positions that I never even made.

Slice 10-22-2008 07:11 PM


Originally Posted by Ja189 (Post 483931)
Wow, LivinginMem your response makes no sense and argues against positions that I never even made.

If you've flown mil, especially fighters, it makes perfect sense.

GrummanCT 10-22-2008 07:59 PM

JA189-

http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/fl...tml#post474369

You may not have 300 hours, but as of less than two weeks ago...

"I am a CFI with 900 TT 256 multi and 8 months instructing at another academy 10/6/2008"

What you are is a poser. Ya know, no one cares your a pilot...Especially on a message board comprised of professional pilots. Someone had you pegged perfectly. "you don't even realize how much you dont know".

900 hours and 8 months instructing. Wow...I'm impressed.

Its the though of having to fly with someone like you that really turns people off.

ryan1234 10-22-2008 08:22 PM

The scary part is not the 200TT (well that's scary)... but even more scary is the 25-50 Multi IMHO

Those will low time... haven't really had the chance to make critical decisions during adverse circumstances... those are what really shapes a pilot.

---disclaimer--- I do not fly an RJ-----

LivingInMEM 10-23-2008 05:34 PM


Originally Posted by Ja189 (Post 483931)
Wow, LivinginMem your response makes no sense and argues against positions that I never even made.

I think Slice was refering to my 2nd of my most recent posts (referring to what USMC said), so I'll cover the first, carrying you through and holding your hand as a good Capt would.

I said "I can see why you think that an RJ F/O should do nothing more than watch the autopilot and work the radios - your analysis skills are not so much." This was a reference to:


Originally Posted by Ja189 (Post 483931)
how hard is it to sit there and monitor the instruments and work the radios for the Capt.? Lets not b.s here, the autopilot does the work, we are merely systems managers and you don't need a lot of time to do that.

and

Originally Posted by Ja189 (Post 483931)
Further, I originally stated that I learned the RJ around 350, not that I currently had 350.

Notice that I said that you think an RJ F/O should do nothing more than watch the autopilot and work the radios because that is what you said. I said your analysis skills are not so much because no one accused you of having 350 hours - although, there were a few references to the generic 350-hour pilot.

I then went on to say: "The fact that you would not even consider the role of decision-maker in the cockpit (which is certainly where experience would come into play) and only reference working the radios and watching the autopilot tells me that you certainly have not been exposed to an ATP type ride or LOE in this type of environment - or that is what your posts convey."

Again, that refers to your comment on what the F/O does and this one...

Originally Posted by Ja189 (Post 483931)
Further, I think all of you making the position that a person who needs more than a few hundred hours to fly an RJ are merely attempting to make yourself feel better about the fact that we just sit there and let the autopilot do all the work.

In a true 121 environment, the F/O does a little more than working radios and watching instruments when the Capt goes to the bathroom. They actually should be productive (as in not just there for the ride or even SA depleting) during all phases of flight regardless of the condition of the aircraft. Again, I have not flown for a regional, but I would suspect that they know the memory items; they are required to fly single-engine and other EP approaches and landings; that they are expected to have a working knowledge of the CFM, FOM, FAR's, and any other applicable directives; etc. Maybe all you do is sit there and watch the instruments because that is all they trust you with (if you do fly RJ's), but don't project those limitations on the others on this board.

LivingInMEM 10-23-2008 05:37 PM


Originally Posted by ryan1234 (Post 484031)
The scary part is not the 200TT (well that's scary)... but even more scary is the 25-50 Multi IMHO

Those will low time... haven't really had the chance to make critical decisions during adverse circumstances... those are what really shapes a pilot.

---disclaimer--- I do not fly an RJ-----

Unfortunately, the keeper of the standard is airline management - and they are the ones leading the race to the bottom. To them, there is no such thing as too inexperienced a pilot, as long as the price is right.


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 05:59 AM.


User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2024 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Website Copyright ©2000 - 2017 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands