Should you apply just because you are qualified?
A few months ago when some regionals were hiring pilots with no flight time, all they needed was a CPL. But "should" individuals with 200TT apply for these jobs just because they meet the minimum qualifications? To be a well-rounded, and competent pilot, shouldn't you have to be a lot more qualified? After all if you are flying people, shouldn't you be a little more concerned about your skill level? How can you tell how good/bad of a pilot you are when you have only 200TT? I would like to hear both sides of this issue...and let me just leave it at that.
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A few months ago you weren't competing with a couple thousand furloughed pilots with more than enough time, type ratings and 121 experience.
Arguement is kind of moot, at least for a while. |
Well, what kind of pilot do you want to be? I feel sorry for guys that went from 0 time to a CRJ in 6-9 months. There's a ton of great flying outside of airline operations. When I look back on my career so far having flown Cessna 150's to F-16's to 747's, my fondest memories are all before I became an airline pilot. Instructing, corporate, single pilot IFR ops, etc. While I love airline flying, it's pretty boring compared to previous jobs. I learned a lot and miss the flying and people I met along the way. That's something you can't put a price on. Enjoy the ride because life's too short!
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Originally Posted by Slice
(Post 473649)
Well, what kind of pilot do you want to be? I feel sorry for guys that went from 0 time to a CRJ in 6-9 months. There's a ton of great flying outside of airline operations. When I look back on my career so far having flown Cessna 150's to F-16's to 747's, my fondest memories are all before I became an airline pilot. Instructing, corporate, single pilot IFR ops, etc. While I love airline flying, it's pretty boring compared to previous jobs. I learned a lot and miss the flying and people I met along the way. That's something you can't put a price on. Enjoy the ride because life's too short!
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As long as we don't attempt tax our way out of this recession (it won't work), the strong demand for airline pilots will return in about 4 years...
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I have a friend who is on the CRJ at Mesaba, and I was talking to him about this today. Here's what he told me; It's all about seniority. If you can get into an airline with low-time, then do it. I was curious about the respect factor from the captains at these airlines and I asked my buddy about that. If you know your stuff there is no reason for them to not respect you, and there is no reason for you to not apply.
However, there are low-timer kids who shouldn't have their hands on a Seminole let alone a CRJ. If you go into a job like this completely unprepared, then you're going to be a burden on everyone you fly with and it wont be fun for you or the guys you fly with. So figure out which one you are and act accordingly. With all that said, there are a ton of guys out on furlough right now at multiple regionals. Don't expect these airlines to set their minimums to a commercial-multi ticket anytime soon. |
What is the difference in a Cessna 172 pilot with 5000 hours and one with 200 hours when teaching them to fly an RJ. Answer: none!
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Originally Posted by Ja189
(Post 476367)
What is the difference in a Cessna 172 pilot with 5000 hours and one with 200 hours when teaching them to fly an RJ. Answer: none!
USMCFLYR |
Don't get your undies in a bundle about this guy. He's just commenting on every thread with some line that makes less sense than a "free cialis, viagra" email.
fr33 c1ali$ womin likes more th@an too 1nchs moaning |
I learned the RJ with 325 hours maybe 100 of that dual given. 5000 hours not necessary! I once had a 20k plus hour retired Air Force pilot explain aircraft transitions to me like this "A plane is a plane is a plane!" As far as CRM goes there is absolutely no CRM in a Cessna that would prepare you for an RJ.
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Originally Posted by Ja189
(Post 481179)
I learned the RJ with 325 hours maybe 100 of that dual given. 5000 hours not necessary! I once had a 20k plus hour retired Air Force pilot explain aircraft transitions to me like this "A plane is a plane is a plane!" As far as CRM goes there is absolutely no CRM in a Cessna that would prepare you for an RJ.
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What is the average amount of hours that a guy who graduates from UPT has when going to fly right seat in a KC-135,C-17 or any other heavy aircraft?
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This was my post down in the Pilot Lounge and the thread is "Leaving the Career".
Originally Posted by SkyHigh ..... It seems to me that the only thing of value that we have left is the ability to sell ourselves out over the next pilot. And that is not a very good position to be in. SkyHigh If that is the case, and it seems as though that's what's going to occur for & over the next 3-5 years.....just thinking out loud.....why not go to a Gulfstream or some other PFT and get the turbo-prop experience that is so highly sought after to better position myself when the dust/debris clears? Given the current economic situation, is this a viable option for some now? The comment was made earlier that regionals aren't going to be lowering their minimums to CPL/ME any time soon and with so many guys that are furloughed people like me who are starting out and as old as I am, (46yrs old), may have a hard road to hoe!!! atp |
Originally Posted by Ja189
(Post 476367)
What is the difference in a Cessna 172 pilot with 5000 hours and one with 200 hours when teaching them to fly an RJ. Answer: none!
A commercial part 91 job doing survey work, traffic watch (maybe), Flight instructing, something that gets someone PIC time, will make them a better pilot. You don't need 5000 hrs to fly as an effect crew member in a CRJ, 1000 hrs would be fine, and if you could get on with some company at 500 hrs you may be ok (going back to the personal thing). Anything less than 400 is kinda crazy I believe for any 121 op. It doesn't matter the training someone goes through to get in the right seat. Time as pic gives someone ADM skills. I never thought I would say it, but instructing really does teach the instructor more about aviation than they thought they knew... This will become an interesting thread. |
Originally Posted by ryan1234
(Post 481306)
What is the average amount of hours that a guy who graduates from UPT has when going to fly right seat in a KC-135,C-17 or any other heavy aircraft?
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Originally Posted by Ja189
(Post 481179)
I learned the RJ with 325 hours maybe 100 of that dual given. 5000 hours not necessary! I once had a 20k plus hour retired Air Force pilot explain aircraft transitions to me like this "A plane is a plane is a plane!" As far as CRM goes there is absolutely no CRM in a Cessna that would prepare you for an RJ.
I disagree. The specifics may differ, however the framework or format is the same; and that's to avoid an accident/incident. atp |
Did you really just say that the framework or the format of CRM in an RJ is the same as that in a Cessna. Wow!! That is all I am going to say on that one. Further, I think all of you making the position that a person who needs more than a few hundred hours to fly an RJ are merely attempting to make yourself feel better about the fact that we just sit there and let the autopilot do all the work. For the guy who commented that a 350 hour pilot wouldn't know what to do with an RJ if the Captain went to the bathroom, allow me to ask, how hard is it to sit there and monitor the instruments and work the radios for the Capt.? Lets not b.s here, the autopilot does the work, we are merely systems managers and you don't need a lot of time to do that. I don't care who you are or where you got your training, first time you sat right seat in a jet you wouldn't be safe without the Captain. Now lets just acquiesce once and for all that you don't need much time to do what you do. Suck it up throw the pride out the door and realize it doesn't take a maverick to do your job. It is fine with me.
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Originally Posted by Ja189
(Post 481839)
Did you really just say that the framework or the format of CRM in an RJ is the same as that in a Cessna. Wow!! That is all I am going to say on that one.
Obviously you read way to much into what I was attempting to convey. Maybe a poor choice of words that didn't clearly convey what I intended say...granted...however, I'll say that the concept or the idea is the same. For instance, say you have two students on a XC flight and they start having engine trouble. While one calls out the engine out emergency check list, the other performs the tasks. This could happen in a SE Cessna or a Duchess, Seminole ect. That's my point. A crew working as a team to avoid an accident/incident. This should clear up any misunderstanding on your part. Oh btw, subtle insults will get you nowhere as far as I'm concerned. atp |
Originally Posted by Ja189
(Post 481839)
Did you really just say that the framework or the format of CRM in an RJ is the same as that in a Cessna. Wow!! That is all I am going to say on that one. Further, I think all of you making the position that a person who needs more than a few hundred hours to fly an RJ are merely attempting to make yourself feel better about the fact that we just sit there and let the autopilot do all the work. For the guy who commented that a 350 hour pilot wouldn't know what to do with an RJ if the Captain went to the bathroom, allow me to ask, how hard is it to sit there and monitor the instruments and work the radios for the Capt.? Lets not b.s here, the autopilot does the work, we are merely systems managers and you don't need a lot of time to do that. I don't care who you are or where you got your training, first time you sat right seat in a jet you wouldn't be safe without the Captain. Now lets just acquiesce once and for all that you don't need much time to do what you do. Suck it up throw the pride out the door and realize it doesn't take a maverick to do your job. It is fine with me.
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Originally Posted by Ja189
(Post 481839)
Did you really just say that the framework or the format of CRM in an RJ is the same as that in a Cessna. Wow!! ...blah...blah....blah...
My 10-yr old daughter shares a common characteristic with young pilots such as this guy, they have no idea how much they don't know. You show your ignorance when you post what you do - hey, we all started out as neophytes, but we didn't all think we knew it all. How naive are you to believe that a 350-hr pilot is no better than a 5000-hr pilot? It's called experience and over a 5,000 hr career, there are bound to be learning experiences along the way. It works for doctors, cops, plumbers, etc,...you learn from experience and a 350-hr pilot has relatively none. Just because anyone passes IOE for a regional does not mean that he is the real deal. And it also does not mean that he/she isn't actually increasing the workload for the Capt when the chips are down. As far as your systems monitoring comments go, I am fairly confident I won't want you up front if those systems start going downhill (2 engine flameout, complete loss of electric, etc) or if the weather starts going south (T-storms, unforecast severe icing, low vis down to mins, low vis below mins with a divert required, low vis below mins with gas at or just below bingo and everyone promising that legal wx is just minutes away, etc). When you look at several of the last regional mishaps, in most cases the argument can be made that they would not have occurred with more experienced pilots at the controls (dual engine flameout too slow/too high, takeoff on wrong runway, runway incursion issues). Oh wait, these are things Capts and F/O's wanting to be Capt's concern themselves with - and your comments in no way resemble a Capt's mentality. It just so happens that AOPA magazine did an article about 0 to RJ right seat in 200 hrs. To that I say, just because it can be done does not mean that it should be done. To the original poster, my criticism is leveled to the people making the hiring decisions. If the norm becomes getting hired at 200 hrs, and you think that you are as good or better than the avg 200 hr pilot, and that is what you want to do - go for it. You boycotting the practice will not change the practice - get hired and focus on becoming the best future Capt you can be. |
Originally Posted by Slice
(Post 481441)
Don't even try and compare military screening and training to 90 days at ATP and then RJ ground school. I'll clue you in though, 300 hour UPT grads don't know much either.
"300 hour UPT grads" may not "know much" but the gov't sees fit to place them at the controls and futhermore in combat circumstances. My point is that the variable is quality of training. |
Originally Posted by LivingInMEM
(Post 481958)
To the original poster, my criticism is leveled to the people making the hiring decisions. If the norm becomes getting hired at 200 hrs, and you think that you are as good or better than the avg 200 hr pilot, and that is what you want to do - go for it. You boycotting the practice will not change the practice - get hired and focus on becoming the best future Capt you can be.
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Keep the brilliant comments coming! I love all the responders that basically call me incompetent and then proceed at the same time to tell me what my experience is and how many hours I have without even having the slightest clue as to who I am. A couple of you in your rebuttle made the very point that I was trying to argue while at the same time being too unintelligent to realize you were arguing the same point. Further, I originally stated that I learned the RJ around 350, not that I currently had 350. To the cool guy who commented that he doesn't like the "young guys" like me, I am far from young, and far from inexperienced. My opinion is probably far more valid than yours. False assumptions should be avoided at all costs.
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Originally Posted by ryan1234
(Post 481970)
I didn't compare anything... just asked a question.
"300 hour UPT grads" may not "know much" but the gov't sees fit to place them at the controls and futhermore in combat circumstances. My point is that the variable is quality of training. |
Originally Posted by Slice
(Post 482076)
True, but there is a lot of training after UPT before one is set loose in a fighter or flying trips as a heavy driver up to 9 more months in some aircraft, then home station qual training to boot as a new guy. It's quality and duration of training that makes the difference.
I think that says quite a bit about the quality of training received. USMCFLYR |
Originally Posted by Ja189
(Post 482074)
Keep the brilliant comments coming! ...then proceed at the same time to tell me what my experience is and how many hours I have without even having the slightest clue as to who I am. ....Further, I originally stated that I learned the RJ around 350, not that I currently had 350. ..... I am far from young, and far from inexperienced. My opinion is probably far more valid than yours. False assumptions should be avoided at all costs.
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Originally Posted by USMCFLYR
(Post 482079)
I think that says quite a bit about the quality of training received.
USMCFLYR And, if not more, the quality of our flight leads that they can maintain SA on their own aircraft, the overall situation, AND on their wingman's situation. |
Wow, LivinginMem your response makes no sense and argues against positions that I never even made.
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Originally Posted by Ja189
(Post 483931)
Wow, LivinginMem your response makes no sense and argues against positions that I never even made.
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JA189-
http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/fl...tml#post474369 You may not have 300 hours, but as of less than two weeks ago... "I am a CFI with 900 TT 256 multi and 8 months instructing at another academy 10/6/2008" What you are is a poser. Ya know, no one cares your a pilot...Especially on a message board comprised of professional pilots. Someone had you pegged perfectly. "you don't even realize how much you dont know". 900 hours and 8 months instructing. Wow...I'm impressed. Its the though of having to fly with someone like you that really turns people off. |
The scary part is not the 200TT (well that's scary)... but even more scary is the 25-50 Multi IMHO
Those will low time... haven't really had the chance to make critical decisions during adverse circumstances... those are what really shapes a pilot. ---disclaimer--- I do not fly an RJ----- |
Originally Posted by Ja189
(Post 483931)
Wow, LivinginMem your response makes no sense and argues against positions that I never even made.
I said "I can see why you think that an RJ F/O should do nothing more than watch the autopilot and work the radios - your analysis skills are not so much." This was a reference to:
Originally Posted by Ja189
(Post 483931)
how hard is it to sit there and monitor the instruments and work the radios for the Capt.? Lets not b.s here, the autopilot does the work, we are merely systems managers and you don't need a lot of time to do that.
Originally Posted by Ja189
(Post 483931)
Further, I originally stated that I learned the RJ around 350, not that I currently had 350.
I then went on to say: "The fact that you would not even consider the role of decision-maker in the cockpit (which is certainly where experience would come into play) and only reference working the radios and watching the autopilot tells me that you certainly have not been exposed to an ATP type ride or LOE in this type of environment - or that is what your posts convey." Again, that refers to your comment on what the F/O does and this one...
Originally Posted by Ja189
(Post 483931)
Further, I think all of you making the position that a person who needs more than a few hundred hours to fly an RJ are merely attempting to make yourself feel better about the fact that we just sit there and let the autopilot do all the work.
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Originally Posted by ryan1234
(Post 484031)
The scary part is not the 200TT (well that's scary)... but even more scary is the 25-50 Multi IMHO
Those will low time... haven't really had the chance to make critical decisions during adverse circumstances... those are what really shapes a pilot. ---disclaimer--- I do not fly an RJ----- |
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