Why is flight training still so expensive?
 

Crude is now 59.33 a barrel. Gas averages at 2.22 a gallon again (Under 2 dollars in some states! Awesome!). Yet my FBO still charges 13.99 per hour for fuel surcharge, and 135 an hour on top of that for a 1999 Cessna 172... The price has probably almost doubled in 4 years, yet now when fuel is cheap again, it doesn't change? What's up with that? I understand that the airlines buy their fuel at a set contract price (they pay 1 amount of what the fuel is worth at the time, regardless of what it will be 6 months from then, or something like that) But do FBO's do the same thing?

I'm at a point right now where I want to get on with my life... I'm working in IT now and make decent money, but want an adventure/learn new things, see new places, meet new people, fly planes... This whole color vision thing I'm working on getting behind me by taking the MFT, and the other setback is money... It just makes me angry that 4 years or so ago, the same school that was like 25 grand is now 60 or 70. Yet my income doesn't even grow at the rate of inflation. (Housing and rent costs have risen even faster than inflation)

I guess my question is... do you see the cost of training going down any time soon if the fuel prices stay low?

While fuel might have gone down a tiny amount; rent, maintenance, parts, insurance (especially), wages (somewhat), and paperwork expenses have gone way up. In many cases, insurance has doubled or tripled in cost for less coverage. Most FBOs can't afford to hedge fuel like some airlines do. Their entire piston fleet of 50-100 airplanes won't suck as much fuel in a year as a single Boeing or Airbus airliner product does in a month.

See if you can get the CFI to work for free, that oughta cut costs by a few cents. You can claim that they'll be saving money by not having to pay taxes.

So yeah, learning to fly is expensive, even if you do it at the cheapest, dirtiest, ugliest operator you can find. But there is hope, if you save up a ton of money then pay for flight training, when you get a flying job you'll be able to afford eating. And if you get one of those CFI jobs where the clients demand you work for free, you'll be able to buy a box from another homeless person.

So in other words, I should just give up, and submit my soul to the office for the remaining 61 or so years of my life? (Considering I live until 85)

I'll tell ya, it does sound tempting... To give up the dream, so I can finally get my own place, and life... But then I'd never be in a career that I enjoy... or feel proud of... Only one that pays (sort of... Transit costs and taxes allow me to clear maybe 1/4 of my paycheck...) and one that people can say whatever they want to you, demand whatever unreasonable request from you, but you have to act like a good little customer service person and remain calm even tho they are only about 1/4 as smart as you... yet make 5 times as much as you...

But at least I'd have 6 waking hours per day to spend in the apartment that I would pay just about a mortgage price for rent on...

It seems like either way, the middle class is screwed.

I feel your pain. I've been working in Korea for nearly 4 years, saving up as much as possible so I can hopefully pay for everything in cash. Unfortunately for me, the Korean currency has lost more then 30% this year, so my savings have taken a huge hit, especially in the last 4 months. I think if oil can stay right around $60 for at least a few months, then you may start to see some flight schools lower their prices.

I know Ari Ben just lowered their 200 hour course by $5,000 and ATP came out with a new program for somewhere near $25,000. I'm looking at going to a place like Star Bright Aviation in Kansas, where I can go from PPL-MEI for right under $40,000. The other alternative is to buy my own plane, hire a CFI, and then sell the plane once I get all my ratings.

FYI...Aviation as a whole has ALWAYS been expensive...why should that change with the price of oil??

I'm in the same boat you are in right now my friend, just a few years before. It is going to be one of the hardest things both of us will ever do. If you want it bad enough, you will make it happen. If not, you could always pursue the office gig and buy a house/start a family etc, and fly on weekends.

As you know the industry isn't the most stable as far as job security goes, and the pay is mediocre unless you're at the top level. I think it is something that only those who dreamed of being a pilot as a kid should pursue. But if you get a good bit of luck on your side and things work out, then in my opinion there is no better way to spend a lifetime than to be a pilot. Either way, good luck to you.

Instead of lobbying here, go talk to lawyers, weeping widows, etc. Get them to stop suing for 1M if someone dies because they were stupid. Thats a HUGE reason this stuff is so expensive. Look, you need a:

100 hr inspection
annual inspection
overhaul when an engine reaches a certain tach time. (up to 40K)
ELT inspection every year
static every 2 years
transponder every two years
airplane needs insurance
CFI or flight school needs insurance
fuel (10 GPH average * 4 bucks)
hanger rental

and the list goes on. See why its so expensive? The school I went to had to pay over 70K a year on insurance on 6 planes.
Go to airnav.com. , and you will see avgas is NOT what mogas is for us.

AVGAS is special. It comprises only a tiny fraction of the gasoline sold in the US each year, and must be specially formulated. Of course a rise in price of the raw material (crude oil) is going to cause the price to jump, but I would never expect it to come down much.

We are lucky that anyone even makes the stuff anymore. As more airplanes convert to diesel/jet A engines the demand will drop further, resulting in decreased production and even HIGHER prices. The refiners don't need GA or AVGAS...they almost do it as a public service.

But there are many other costs associated with GA...Mx and liaibility are the biggies. I wouldn't expect the cost to come down...the transition to diesel engines will drive costs even higher (the retrofits will be expensive).

If you're gonna do it, may as well get started because it's not going to get any cheaper...

I've seen avgas in some places come down a good $1.50 to $2/gal. Other places not so much. I agree with Rick that avgas is a niche market.

On another note, if we could get auto fuel without ethonol in it, quite a few of the "older" era training aircraft could burn car gas.

It's not as simple as you make it sound. Everybody else here chimed in with the biggest reasons.

Avgas comprises less than 1/10 of 1% of the gasoline refined in the US annually. Refineries don't like to shut down, retool and produce a small batch of unprofitable fuel which is why the other aviation fuels have gone by the wayside. Add to that pressures from the EPA about the lead content and it's becomming even more scarce. Even when Gas was around $1/gallon 100LL was selling around $3/gallon.

So they need to start designing some small turboprop single engine planes... more reliable, faster, safer... =)

Try to find a 61 school that rents the aircraft DRY! I did and I can tell you it saved A LOT of money! No surcharge and you can even learn how to fuel up your own airplane:rolleyes:..... XC's run at peak economy... works a lot better.

There are reasonable flight schools out there! One I know of in my area rents a 01' 172sp for $65/hr dry ... and PA34 for $100/hr dry .... solid well maintained aircraft ... instruction is $35/hr, fuel at an airport right up the road is $3.15/gal

Damn that's cheap... where is this located?

Turboprops aren't efficient until you get into the flight levels.

Diesel is probably the future, and those engines are ideal for general aviation (high torque, low RPM) but companies like Theilert are getting bogged down in the certification process and going bankrupt.

Engine technology hasn't changed much in the last 50 years. It's time for the FAA to work towards streamlining the certification process for new technologies because thousands of jobs will be lost as GA dies.

I am actually in the same exact situation as you are in. I pay $135/hour for a 1998 and a 2000 172. I was wondering the same thing about the price decrease, but it is clear to me now that it has much more to do with avgas. I look at it like this. Yes, I am also paying out of my pocket, and if I wasn't living with my parents, I am not sure if I could make this. At the end, I have minimal amount of savings etc. But I am flying as you are too. We can fly without borrowing 40K and uncertain of how long it would take to get the licenses, what problems may occur (medical etc.), and most of all how the industry goes. I am glad that I am paying out of my pocket. Certainly, if all goes well what an investment!! There are places in this area that offer much more cheaper training ($80 something for 152 for example), that I am thinking about looking at after I got my PPL. However, keep your options open, try to pay out of your pocket. I think it would be a miracle if they lowered the prices...But again, I think the best bet for me is to find a cheaper place, if it is possible. Then again, you pay for what you get, like instruction, reliability, maintenance. I have yet to think hard, and if I think that paying $135 for this place (which is absolutely excellent), is worth it, then I may as well continue to obtain my ratings here, again, I have to think hard, visit other places, and see how it goes. For now, I am just concentrating on getting my PPL. Good luck and hang in there.

There is no doubt that costs have skyrocketed just in a few years. I joined a flying club in 2004 and was paying $33/hour WET for a C152!!!! Now it costs $58/hour wet( which still is a steal) almost doubling what I paid 4 years ago. Unfortunately I moved to another state for college and am stuck trying to pay a minimum of $90/hour for anything else.

Not that I believe in conspiracies or anything, but on a separate forum awhile back I was reading somewhere that 100LL is pretty much still around just because companies know that they can make a decent profit off of it because so many small airplanes require it. And honestly, many airplanes have been STC'd to use autofuel which is now half as expensive as 100LL. There are several issues with this though: Many operators believe that autofuel is kind of a cheap and not necessarily healthy fuel to be putting through their engines. However, from some material that I have read and comments Ive seen on other forums, autofuel in many cases has shown to be a better fuel than 100LL because it will often improve compression quite a bit. The other issue though is that it is becoming harder and harder to find autofuel without ethanol in it, which is prohibited in most cases for use in airplanes that have autofuel stc's. Lastly, not too many airports have autofuel pumps located on the field. Obviously if you are adventurous you could always go to your local gas station and fill up a bunch of tanks :D.

Even if auto fuel is appropriate for a 172 the student has no say in it. It is a good alternative to save money for those who actually own the aircraft.

Located at XFL... PM me if you are interested, good people there! One of the reasons they are inexpensive is the way they do business. They did not over-extend their credit like many flight schools did by getting into state of the art facilities with brand-new planes (which doesn't make sense to be used by students). They only have 2 172sp's and 1 Seneca.

btw... AVGAS has gone down significantly... lower than it has been in a long time... it is a niche fuel, and I have heard that some places are taking a loss on it to bring people to their FBO.... I've seen avgas as low as $2.99 around Florida.

The aviation industry is a good example of over-regulation and several needless regulations...that is what is killing it..IMHO

Also... you don't always get what you pay for.. I can think of several schools of the top of my head that are really expensive and the planes/instruction isn't anything to write home about. Personally old planes (to a degree) are probably better for primary training anyways....if something does happen, at least you'll know the signs and how to deal with it.

I remember flying with a student from a very high priced school who refused to fly VFR because one (!) of the radio's display wasn't fully working! Another student refused to lean the mix below 3000, even though it is super-humid in FL...and would yield the better performance! Many students memorize procedures (which is good) however they refuse to think through a process.... for example... engine quits @ 5000ft, they immediately start looking for somewhere to put down.... never think maybe check the ignition key, fuel valve, etc...all items that take a second to check... anyways... that's all for a different thread!

I hear ya bro...flew today for 3 hours...cost me $336

Even under optimal conditions at the flight levels, no turbine engine is anywhere near as efficient as a piston job. Basic thermodynamics.

Turbine engines are far more reliable, and produce far more power for their size and weight. They also make airplanes go faster. But they are expensive to build and maintain, in addition to burning more fuel.

Heavy industry uses large diesel/natural gas engines wherever possible...the are cheaper to maintain and more fuel effecient. However a piston engine which can work in the middle flight levels and come anywhere near jet speeds is a massive, extremely complex machine with staged turbos and intercoolers. In addition it would have to be rebuilt on a regular basis.

The school where at which I work recently dropped our prices due to reduction in fuel cost. Depending on the plane, it was anywhere from $4-$12/hour. Rates may drop a little more if fuel prices continue to drop.

Our cheapest plane still rents for a little over $100/hour, however. As others have said, there's a lot more cost to operating an airplane than filling the tank. Insurance, scheduled maintenance, unscheduled maintenance, payments on some aircraft--these things add up.

Learning to fly is expensive. I suppose there are some gradations of expensive, say, Somewhat Expensive to Very Expensive to Crazy Expensive (seriously, people, stop getting your PPL in an SR-22), but Cheap it will never be.

And be careful the seductiveness of dry rates. Sometimes they're a good deal, other times not and, regardless, be sure to budget for your fuel costs.

Another thought is that at the very least, a good chunk of PPL flying can be done in light sport planes... They're a LOT cheaper than even the beat-up old-school 150 at most places... Plus, they're new...ish... At the place I used to teach, using the Evektor in place of a 172 for everything you could on your private took the cost down by about half.

This is true, and depends largely on the instructor. For an example, I tried to pursue at a much cheaper place, but I could not find a helpful and coorporative enough instructor to accomadate me... Thus I thought I should initially start at this expensive FBO and then give it another try after my PPL. I want to save as much as I can, but right now, getting the PPL is the biggest concern and challenge for me now, although I am paying a lot, I am glad to be paying out of my pocket. But I am not sure if I want to get my instrument rating at this same place if I could work it out on the other option. The only catch is that it is part 61 so I will have to have that 50 hours of XC...Again, I would rather pay a lower price for hours that I really need at the end.

Flight training is so expensive in part because a factory-new Cessna 172SP is running $283,500...$100k higher than they were five years ago.

And personally, I don't think I'd ever rent an airplane I owned to someone dry...a renter saving $20-50 in fuel by flying excessively lean could cost me THOUSANDS come overhaul time.