floridaCFII

You don't need any "method" to determine hold entries... just do whatever the 430 tells you to as you cross the fix





(kidding)

ryguy

When you first start learning holding, it is probably best to draw it out until you have a good grasp on what's going on. The thumb method is a bit more advanced once you can visualize what is happening. Right now you don't have the extra thinking capacity to rely on it. Draw it out and take it slow. He should be giving you at least three minutes and even drawing it out should only take one.

As you get further along and it becomes fairly routine, you will free up that extra brain power and it won't be as difficult. You'll begin to focus on key things about the clearance and the thumb method will be a quick way to get the idea. At this point you'll also be able to visualize the hold as well and use both tools to confirm the other. As others have said, the thumb method works by using the outbound course. It works in all cases but the key is to decipher what the outbound course is.

Key terms in the clearance: 10 DME fix (you know you are not at the VOR/NDB) and hold east (that tells you there is no way you could use 270 as the outbound course).

Anyway, to make a long story longer... draw it for now

NoyGonnaDoIt

When you first start learning holding, it is probably best to have a ground session with a CFII who (a) teaches it well and (b) understands that people are different in the way they learn and process, so that you understand it on the ground and then using a method that works for you in the air.
Sorry, but that's just silly. "Advanced" is hearing the clearance, looking at the DG and just "seeing" it without assistance. Being able to visually superimpose the holding pattern on the DG is also pretty well up there. All the rest - drawing, thumbs, fingers, various other body parts, pencils, etc - are just individual methods of helping pilots who have trouble just "seeing" it (which is probably most of us).

250 or point 65

does this "advanced" thumb method work when you hold your thumb up to the compass?

good luck on a partial panel hold

ryguy

I said "a bit" more advanced, not the most advanced method known to mankind. I also said that once he was good at it and was able to visualize the hold, he could use the thumb method as another tool to back himself up. So in essence, we said the same thing. I guess that makes us both "silly".

Here's a tip, listen to your own words about how people learn. One of those individual methods could be his best learning tool.

ryguy

No one method works for all situations. He'll get to the point where he will find what works for him, including partial panel. By then he will hopefully begin to visualize what is happening. For now, he is just beginning and will use what works best for him.

The thumb method is a bit more advanced only because it gives him additional things to think about. For now he needs to just keep it simple.

floridaCFII

You can use an otherwise unused VOR/movable card ADF receiver to help you solve that problem.

NoyGonnaDoIt

I'm sorry. I really didn't intend any insult.

But I really don't see how sticking your thumb somewhere is any more advanced than drawing the hold. In fact, I think that the thumb method requires far less understanding of holding than drawing it.

ryguy

Maybe I'm not conveying what I mean by advanced very well. By advanced I mean more for advanced users. Someone who already has a good grasp on what's happening and then uses this as a tool to come up with a faster answer. The pilot needs to be at a more advanced stage in their training to employ the method as has been proven. The instructor should not have taught it that way to begin with. At this point in his training it is only taking up more thinking capacity and not helping. Not only does he have to think about the fundamentals but now he's thinking how to use this technique in addition and quite simply won't be able to do it effectively.

The act of performing the thumb, pencil, eraser, etc. method is not advanced, the pilot using it needs to be.

250 or point 65

OR...

you could actually have enough understanding of what you are doing to know where you are, where the hold is, draw it out and KNOW that you chose the correct entry. I can just see that explanation of why you were holding on the unprotected side..."well you see sir, my thumb told me to fly on that side."

welllllll, actually, drawing it out does work in all situations. actually, its the only method that does not have exceptions.

why on earth would someone learn to draw out a hold...eventually in their head, gain a wonderful amount of situational awareness, only to throw understanding out the window for a "trick"? There is no way that understanding something is less advanced than using a trick.