floridaCFII

So I've been realizing something lately, and I guess it's time to vent a bit.

We have no end to other pilots willing to buy type ratings, pay for training, pay for jobs, etc and step on the backs of those of us who are actually building our time in a legit way. But are they completely to blame? Common sense would say yes... but then again, aren't we (CFI's) their primary source of learning about aviation? Maybe we're partially to blame. Isn't it our job to teach them about not only the skills of flying, but also the aviation industry?

Over the past few months, I've had conversations with a number of my students about other people who buy their way into jobs, pay for type ratings in exchange for work, etc. I've had more than a few students tell me "Sure... I'd do that if I had the money". After explaining to them why it's a bad thing for the industry (and ultimately themselves), all of them have told me something like "Wow... I've never thought of it that way before."

If every single pilot out there started refusing to pay for jobs, training, and type ratings, then companies who need pilots would have to start stepping up to the plate.

I know that a lot of the way I fly I picked up on from my primary instructor way back when I did my PPL. If one CFI can convince one pilot that paying for training is a bad idea, then we have made a positive impact.

The moral of the story is that we have a huge influence on the way our students will act when it's time for them to become professionals. So take a minute to include some basics about the industry in your lesson plans. We're supposed to be mentoring our students about the right and wrong way to fly... let's also mentor them about the right and wrong way to behave.

If they don't learn it from us, who else is going to teach them?

MUFAZA

I agree. We all have to step up to the plate as flight instructors and take some initiative to better the future of our student...Our future professionals.

ryan1234

you're preaching to the choir.... but at the same rate... some of these people bashing paying for building hours did at some point pay for something to get a better job...for example Southwest requires a type (so... what did you do to prepare for this interview/job?) unless they managed to get a 73 type for free, and they got a job with Southwest...they probably paid for it somewhere along the line. I could be totally wrong, but if the only way to get into a nice corporate job was to have some biz type they would probably get it and not think twice about it. Is it a good investment?
I don't know about you, but I wouldn't wana be the guy instructing for 10 years waiting for someone to pay for my training... while you could just get a type or something or 100 more hours multi or whatever... and get a better job.

As an old teacher once said: "The world is a giant pizza, everyone is trying to grab a slice"

This is just my opinion.

HSLD

This is always a good discussion and a difficult choice because it involves sacrifice.

For those against PFT, at least for the short term there are VERY few lenders willing to make loans for commercial pilot traning. Training demand is down and so is the financiing for prospective pilots so who knows what that will do in the short term and at the rebound.

One point of clarification is that Southwest requires a type as a condition of employment, NOT as a condition of being qualified to interview. Successful applicants at SWA are offered a job as a pilot conditional on holding a 737 type is they do not already have one. It hasn't always been this way, but has changed in recent years.

So, the argument for PFT becomes are we collectively going to address it from the top down, or the bottom up. I think the most benefit to the profession would be atttacking the issue from the bottom up which would improve wages and quality of life for many more pilots than those trying to jump into the SWA pool.

atpwannabe

You know, I agree with everything all of you have stated, however, what do you say to pilot that has a family to feed; a mortgage to pay or face foreclosure; a car note to pay or provide some sort of health care for himself and his family. There may be some in such dire circumstances that that may be their only choice....PFT that is. Given the current economic situation having a bird in the hand is a helluva lot better than have a thousand in the bush.

My question is then, "When does a pilot forsake his or her fellows for the security of their family? I thought about this the last time I started a thread on PFT when I was considering Gulfstream. They do have Captains making over 100K a year. Not sure how many are making that kind of money or how many hours they fly or how long they been with the company. Living in FL all year round and flying to destinations mostly in FL and the Bahamas isn't such a bad idea if that's what you like. In addition, having a spouse that is equally successful in their chosen career field as well ain't all that bad.

Just something to think about.




atp

NoyGonnaDoIt

It's about choices. And choices are usually made better with knowledge and understanding of the consequences.This is about information and explanation. And about a student who reacted to the information with understanding.

But nothing in that dialogue tells us what choice that student will make in 2 or 3 or 5 years when he either (a) re-examines the subject and/or (b) balances the effects on the industry with the effects on himself and his family.

ryan1234

I don't quite understand all of the driving economic forces/artificial forces driving the relatively low wages for pilots, but I do believe that PFT is not the single largest contributing issue - merely a product of several issues not addressed.

Personally I don't believe in PFT, simply because it is generally not a good investment based on opportunity costs, etc. But, playing the devil's advocate could provide for a balanced discussion.

You brought up a great point about the credit markets.

More regulation usually equals more required subsidy, and more subsidy requires more regulation (I'm not saying transportation regulation is all together bad, just that it comes with a cost). In my very amateur opinion, what seemed like an open credit market (artificially) certainly added to the PFT fire, and as a byproduct produced more competition amongst more qualified pilots, thereby reducing collective wages. In a parallel circumstance, airlines that existed, perhaps, because of open-ended credit markets as well as "bail-outs", increased competition amongst themselves and collectively lowered prices/wages.

I suppose the auto industry will see lower wages as a result of subsidy, in a slightly different circumstance.

ufgatorpilot

Give me a break, if Southwest wanted to hire you, you would run out and buy a 737 type rating just like the rest of us would.

And what exactly is "building [time] in a legit way"? Is that being a CFI/CFII/MEI?

atpwannabe

In the spirit of a balanced discussion, what are some of those opportunity costs that you purport? Also, are you saying that there really is no pilot shortage in terms of companies (91, 121, 135) being able to meet their schedule needs?

Your logic is correct. If you flood the market with a myriad of qualified individuals in a certain profession, then the wage/salary of that profession will decline.


This I cut & pasted from one of SkyHigh's comments in another thread:

A year ago things were much different. Airlines were grabbing every 350 hour wonder that walked by. Under those conditions it would be a good idea to take advantage of the opportunity......

Maybe that's what management had in mind the whole time!!!



atp

floridaCFII

Hey... some of us actually believe that we are professionals and that professionals don't pay for their own training as a condition of employment. If an employer wants to hire me, they should be responsible for my training. If everyone took a hard line on this subject, employers would be forced to pay for what they already should be paying for.

When I refer to a legit way of building time I mean any job where we are paid as a professional to fly. If you don't want to be a CFI, then get a job flying traffic watch, towing banners, flying jumpers, etc... just don't pay for your hours or your job.

I directed the post at CFIs because we have the most influence on new pilots and it's up to us to change their way of thinking to improve the industry.