Future Outlook?
 

Hey guys,

I know this may belong in the hiring section, but I wanted to ask you guys directly instead.

I will be graduating from University of California, San Diego this summer with a aerospace engineering degree. Now I've always wanted to work my way to become a major airline pilot, and am now at the crossroads of choosing the rest of my life, flight school, or grad school. I am pretty scared that I will be in the hole after flight school with no one willing to hire.

Could I get your opinions on the situation? Mine and the industry?

-patiently awaiting any opinion/advice
Tom

Two words of advice for you. Grad School....

I would not want to be trying to break into this business right now under any circumstances.

It is my strong opinion that flight school is waste of time and money currently. Will the industry turn around? Sure it will eventually, but you are really just rolling the dice on flight school hoping that it will turn around anytime in the near future.

I don't know how old you are but if you're young enough you might consider trying to get into the air guard. That way you can do both, fly and go to grad school. If things turn around you'll have the experience to get that airline job. If they don't turn around you get to keep flying and have job too.

Tom -

You didn’t tell us how far you’ve gotten so far? You are graduating with an aerospace degree so do you have a private pilot license, a CFI or nothing so far? I’m asking because when I was graduating from my aviation university I was a CFI/II & MEI with over 1,000 hours of flight time. In other words our advice will vary greatly based on which stage of your career you are at.

If you go to a grad school what would you be pursuing? I’m fairly certain that no matter what field you choose – you will probably make more money and have a much more stable career than if you stick to flying. :(

Something else to consider - I got an electrical engineering degree before my flying degree and can tell you that lots of ‘brainiacs’ such as as yourself get quickly bored with the flying profession. In fact, several of my close friends quit flight instructing because it simply wasn’t stimulating enough for them… That’s just something you should consider because it’d be horrible for you to regret being a pilot some 10-15 years down the road.

Having said that, there are no guarantees in life no matter what you do.

Are you single or married? Do you have kids? If you already have a family or thinking about getting one soon, this field is NOT very family friendly. Especially at the level you are at; it gets better when you accumulate seniority at your final airline but it’ll be a while before you get there.

If you pay for your training with student loans (like I did) you can always defer paying them back but eventually you’ll have to start paying and it’ll be a while before you can say “I’m debt-free.” I’ve been flying professionally for 14 years and am still paying off my student loans. Granted, the first 11 years I just couldn’t pay anything at all, so I kept deferring my payments but I am just illustrating to you what you might be getting into.

It is probably safe to say that in the next couple of years you’ll be seeing lots of negative news in the airline world, poor earnings, layoffs, possibly bankruptcies.

I must be telling you all this so I can talk you out of this profession, right?

Well, actually quite the opposite. Call me the eternal optimist (here at APC we call it "Anti-Biggs"... :)) but I still think this is a great career to get into.

If your family life can handle it (that’s why I asked if you were married, etc) and you are prepared for some miserable years to come (maybe even a decade or so!) things will only get better from now. None of the horrible economical news should really affect you right now as you’re at the very beginning of your career.

So focus on getting your flight instructor licenses (if you don't have them already) and try to get a flying job where someone actually pays YOU money for flying (such as instructing, etc).

Stay away from those who’ve been in this field and have a negative outlook because they are bitter (often rightfully so) but that’s not going to help you. Instead, remember that this is as bad as it gets so things simply must get better.

Do your research (which you’re doing now ;)), decide if it’s worth the tremendous sacrifices and then start the process in very small steps (so you don’t become overwhelmed). Remember to stay away from the half-empty types and be upbeat and one day it will happen…

I’d still do it all over again and am very happy that I decided to pursue flying…

If you have the time to do it I would choose grad school. One can always go to flight school when a break in the schedule permits, but how easy is it the other way around?

The days of going from Zero to Hero through a flight school are long gone and I don't think we will see it again for quite sometime. The last time it happened was in the 1960s. Right now its back to the way it was during the early 90s. Plenty of qualified guys on the street that are looking for jobs and when hiring does restart the competition will be fierce for a few years. I also believe we will start to see some of the RJ commuter jobs shrink in demand and a couple of the weak sisters go out of buisness.

You could get your tickets now but I hear guys are having trouble even getting CFI jobs and most CFI jobs pay crap. My suggestion is do a little flying one the side while in grad school or maybe getting rating at the end of a semester. Assuming you can swing both financially.

I was in a very similar situation when I graduated in '98 with an aerospace engineering degree. The difference for me was that I already had a pilot slot in ROTC. As I'm sure you are seeing already, aero engineering jobs aren't all that easy to come by right now with the economy in a recession. The aero engineering field (more so than most other engineering disciplines) is very cyclical. At the time, the Air Force was also asking for volunteers to stay in school for a Master's Degree and delay pilot training.

I have kicked myself since then for not staying to get my Master's. I agree with the poster above - you should stay in school and trying to get a Air Guard or Reserve job on the side. They should even have some tuition assistance programs you could take advantage of. The way I see it, the worst you can do is make yourself more marketable during your job search if you decide to stay in the engineering field. Then, if you end up going military, you already have your Master's (which is almost a requirement to make it past the rank of Major). If you decide that you still want to pursue commercial aviation, you will have more resources (read: money) to help you reach that goal and get past the years of crappy pay while you're building your flight time.

My .02, FWIW.

There are tons of talking points when choosing this career but from your post I saw two that stood out. The first one is flying with a major airline. Right now you have to say that you will be fine with your career if you never make it to a major airline or at least it will take 15 to 20 years from right now(assuming your in your low 20's). Now people will come on and say, well so and so did this by 25,29,33,36 or whatever, but the point is that the ratio of major airline jobs to total airline jobs has been on decline for years. And the majority of pilots that do make it to a major are getting on at older and older ages. The second talking point is about debt. You must limit your debt. Flight Instructing pays in the teens. FO at a regional at best pays in the mid 20's. You will be an FO at a regional for multiple years. Quick upgrades due to explosive growth is over. Now there are other ways to advance in one's career ie corporate, cargo and fractional but I have no experience in those areas so I can not comment on these other areas. The point is if you rack up 30,40,50 thousand dollars in debt(I have heard as high as 100 thousand), you will be hard pressed to pay that back making less then $25,000 for the first 5 years or so of your career.

UCSD is not an aviation college, more engineering and science.

Like someone said, you probably want to seriously consider whether an aviation career would be stimulating enough for you. Since the industry (and most other industries) are down right now, you might want to get that graduate degree, and earn a PPL license on the side. I would suggest getting a job in your field if you can, and fly for fun on the side...that should give you a baseline for comparison.

As you probably know, most of the aerospace and defense workers in this country are over the age of 50...in the long run there should be plenty of opportunity in your field as they retire.

I was in the same situation when I graduated in 2006 with an aerospace engineering degree and most of my flight tickets. On the one hand I had several $55k per year jobs making airplane parts, one of which was right in my home town. On the other I saw a long, low-paying, iffy venture lasting for decades through the regionals and possibly ending at the regionals by age 60 (as it was then). I was a bit old (38), somewhat debt ridden, and already tired of road life so for me the decision was fairly easy in favor of the desk job. Later I managed to make the best of it by getting into a flight test department of a major aircraft manufacturer and picked up a lot of part time flying. It has not been that bad a deal for someone who likes airplanes so much and had such a late start.

If I had been free from debt at 26 and had just come out of engineering school I think I would have gone on to grad school, received an M.S., built more instructing hours on the side, then launched for a good regional after that with an attitude of majors or bust. I still think this is a good plan for many but you have to plan it from your early twenties. After that the whole thing becomes very iffy. I do know people who launched careers from their late 30's but they report mixed results, and they certainly did not carry any debt in with them. None of them has made the majors yet either.

Cool post. I'm 22 now and feel frustrated because I'm not even half-way through college right now (aerospace eng. also). I Love to see where people have graduated a little later, and had everything work out. Thanks

If I was in your shoes, I'd go to Grad school, wouldn't even think twice about it... If you enjoy flying, get your pvt and commercial along the way, maybe fly skydivers on the weekends.

Grad school bro, hands down

HUH?! You mean it's not pre Madonna??? :eek:

Almost fell out of my chair first time I saw it here on APC :D

my thought, go to grad school, buy a strip club!

hahaha, how about go to grad school and start a fractional. Call it GradJet

Go into this industry out of passion.. nothing else.

Even when things were good, the ones who were successful had the drive to see it through. I started as an aircraft mechanic and have been flying for over 20 yrs now.. I wouldn't do anything else. I've recently decided that commercial flying isn't for me. To be honest.. it's boring, you're under paid, and allot of your peers are whining prima donnas (for those of you fresh out of flying academy X, Y, or Z, that's \ˌpri-mə-ˈdä-nə, : a vain or undisciplined person who finds it difficult to work under direction or as part of a team... you can see it in some of the posts you read here.. especially in the regional section..), Most guys are the coolest people you could ever work with.. buy there are some tools out there...
so I left a very lucrative captain seat to fly in the private/contractor sector. The flying is interesting and less restrictive. I like this since it is closer to the military flying I loved.. There are lots of non airline jobs out there if you just enjoy the flying. The airlines definitely have their perks, but there is more out there.
Chase your dream.. but I recommend going into the military. It is the coolest experience I've every had. Where else can you fly, drink, fornicate, and fight, on every continent for a paycheck that exceeds most jobs out there now. It's not for everyone, but it's an opportunity with a shelf date.. Get in before you're 27. All of the branches are hiring.. the deployments are actually fun if your attitude is right. Good luck.

Interesting, my post # 12 (Today, 03:02 PM) was a reply to the post #16 (Today, 08:55 PM)...??? Hmmm, what's going on? :confused:

Has time-travel been invented after all? ;)

First, I'm not a pilot yet, so I can't help you there.

Second, congratulations on the B.S.! Is that Aerospace Science Engineering, or Aeronautical Engineering? Also, which branch: Aerodynamics, Structures, Propulsion, Avionics or Orbital Mechanics/Satellite Systems?

Times have really changed. Back when I thought I wanted a degree in Aerodynamics, the only way I could have stayed in California, was to attend San Jose State University and at that time, their Aerospace Science department was brand new. San Diego, would have been a better pick for sure, weather wise - I take it that you enjoyed the weather very much. ;)


I cannot speak as a pilot as I stated above. However, I remember being in a very similar position as you are right now. Personally, given what I know about how the real-world works after life in college, I will say that doing some Graduate work right now, especially given your very young age, will pay you dividends in the future. The kind of dividends that you are not able to see, or fully understand right now from your perspective - all because of your age and because you have probably not spent enough time working for an established company.

Having said that, I will also say this: Your future is extremely bright and don't allow anyone to tell you different. You can do or become anything you want, especially here in the United States of America. [end of pep talk]

The realities of our nation's economy are about to undergo some drastic change. We are on the crux of an epic paradigm shift in the way we drive our economy. The current economic crisis has been brewing since the early 1980's for a number of different reasons and that is what has triggered the economic paradigm shift that most people don't even realize is already underway.

That paradigm shift will be a shot in the arm to General Aviation and Commercial Aviation sectors alike and will therefore require more pilots than our nation has ever had a need for and you could be sitting at the launching point of that new wave of hiring - yet to begin.

Now, we've got a whole lot of policy, structural, monetary and fiscal mess to clean-up before the "next wave" begins, but rest assured that wave will include at its core, certain kinds of brand new technologies that will be used as tools to re-engineer our economy for the 21st century and beyond. That restructuring of our economy will provide the climate and the need for even greater commercial aviation operations, world wide and especially here at home, to support the new logistical and demographic changes that will come as a direct result. But, it won't all be passenger 121 operations. A lot of the new growth will be 135 cargo operations as that will be part of the backbone for the new economic paradigm, yet to come. So, while there will be plenty of 121, you might start looking into the way 135's operate as well.

Ok, so that's the future economic reality that we have not yet seen, so to speak. So, don't be afraid of the future, simply because you want to be an airline pilot and because you base that fear on what you see around you today. Things are going to change and when they do, you need to be prepared.

Also, think International as well. The U.S. is not the only country that will be impacted by the paradigm shift to come economically, you can see the shift in other countries as well. Just take a closer look at Dubai, as just one example. As far as being an American Commercial Airline Pilot is concerned, what's going on in Dubai right now is merely one example of why more pilots will be needed in the future. As nations begin to shift their economies drastically, they will become better trading partners for a myriad of different reasons.

But, that's not the part you care about. The part you care about is the fact that as they begin to scale their economies, they begin to do more business here in the U.S.. That will require new flight routes, new aircraft orders and new flight crews for those countries that do not have established airlines themselves. This is but one of the many reasons why more airlines will begin to come online and why more pilots will be needed.

You can see this particular phase in the shift happening already, as you now have countries like Dubai, doing marketing and advertising here in the U.S. for non-stop air travel from either coast, directly to Dubai. As developing countries begin to come online and increasingly become stronger trading partners with the U.S., their demographic and logistical reality will change/expand requiring them to operate more domestic AND international flight operations and it is the international component that will create a void/vacuum here in the U.S. that will need to be filled.

All of this will mostly be predicated on the new U.S. global economic driver, yet to come. So, as you think locally about your own airline career and what will potentially drive it, you at the same time must think globally about the potential drivers that can have an impact on your career here at home.

And, this is just one reason why the airline industry here in the U.S. will have a re-birth. It is not over. It is just beginning! As a direct consequence of all this, you can expect an even bigger boom to come in the Fractional Ownership game with business models such as the one NetJets or FlightOptions has right now. So, does your career have to be in the Boeing 787, or the Airbus A380. Or, can you get along making nice six figures flying the new G-650, or the coming Lineage 1000 [or, something in that vein].


Your future is bright, do not fear anything. Seriously, take the advice given here and work on the Masters. I cannot talk to you as a pilot, but I can talk to you from the position of understanding what happens "next" in our economy. I can tell you that the next positive economic wave is going to alter the demographics and logistics for how we live our lives. Not just here at home, but abroad. That shift in demographics and logistics will require more air travel, bottom line. Fear not - you have plenty of time and that's why your Masters Degree should look very good to you right about now. You should be licking your chops at the opportunity to get some graduate work under your belt.

Economic "drivers" are what you should be concerned about, here. At your age, you can afford to look beyond the present "crisis" and see the positive economic reality waiting to unfold. The "shift" is already underway, but these are like tectonic shifts and they won't happen overnight, so you have time to tuck some advanced study under your belt - take advantage of it.

You are a smart young man and you've already proven that much by obtaining a very difficult degree - not one that everybody can handle intellectually. So, you are probably able to split your time just like any law school student who works during the day while obtaining his law degree at night. Or, any doctor, who works during the day while attending medical school at night. Or, the inverse - school during the day and work at night. I did both for years and hold three (3) technical degrees today. So, it can be done.

Maybe school during the day, and flight training then flight instructing later in the day and/or on the weekends? A possibility, nonetheless? Maybe some of the flight instructors here can talk to you about how to arrange your schedule. But, that way you get your Masters and you get to establish some [not a lot right now] flight time under your belt as well.

I have a full-time career, but I'm getting ready to invert my schedule to do flight training and then "experience building" on a full-time basis, as I work part-time. I'm not going to have a commercial flight career, however. My goals are a little bit different than yours but we BOTH have to start training, build real experience/time and get our selves ready to fly high performance multi-engine jets. Except the ones you will eventually fly will be bigger than the one I fly.

Or, you can simply focus full-time on that Masters - which quite frankly, I am biased towards anyway having three degrees myself. Your youth is a massively huge asset to you right now - in more ways than you know. Take advantage of that youth by filling it with advanced study. You will not regret the time spent doing it, nor the effort it took. But, you will reap the rewards in ways you just can't see right now.

All the best - God's speed!

I had to repost it since it was removed for obscene language. I used a four letter word starting with F in the first posting. Evidently you can change the spelling by using symbols :rolleyes:

I would suggest:

Get your engineering degree
get a job in your field
get your licenses & ratings at a local FBO (closes city where you work & live)
Go from PPL to MEI
flight instruct on the side (until industry picks up again)
Do a 1, 3 & 5 year review of your aviation career plans.
Make a decision that best suits your needs and meets your expectations and desire.


atp

As a guy who has 2 master's degrees and has been in and out of aviation, these are my thoughts:

Seek advice, but follow your bliss. When I got into aviation in the early 90s every airline pilot told me I was nuts. If I would have listened to them I would have never become an airline pilot. I worked my way through my ratings, flight instructed, flew charter and worked as a ramp agent. In 1998 the airlines had recovered and I got hired on as a pilot for Mesaba. Be prepared and ready if and when things turn around.

In 2004 I left Mesaba to go back to school for a 2nd masters. After 6 years flying at the airlines I had enough. Contract negotiations, furloughs, displacements, etc. Basically no light at the end of the tunnel. I liked flying and the people I worked with, but couldn't justify staying with the airlines financially. Life always seemed like one step forward and two steps back. My wife made more money than me and it made no sense to move. I was sick of commuting.

While getting my 2nd masters I also got law enforcement certification. I worked summers as a deputy sheriff. A year ago aviation was having a bit of a growth spurt again and I decided to give it another go. Eagle said they'd give me a Embraer job in ORD with probably not more than 3 months on reserve. This sounded good to me as I was looking for a easy commute to ORD and a decent schedule. Fuel prices then shot up, Eagle quit hiring and I found myself on permanant reserve and facing displacement.... Back to working in my last degree field.

ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS have a back-up career!!! Aviation is way too fickle. Some guys never get hired. Some that do are forced out. Some are like me and like being pilots but are not willing to sell their soul or their family life to do it. Many have no other job skills and are stuck with it no matter what crap the airlines deal them.

In short, get your grad degree. Have a back-up career and have independence. Never rely on the airlines to feed your family. View flying as a second job or a hobby. If you get hired at a regional you're going to make side-job wages for the first few years. View it as a side-job. Maybe it works out and your passion turns into a career, but don't put all your eggs in that basket.

That's my new philosophy, anyway. It's much less frustrating to think in these terms. If things pick up in the airlines again I wouldn't mind going back. Money isn't a huge deal for me anymore. Being a captain isn't a big deal for me anymore. A decent quality of life and I'm happy. Smell the roses, etc. If it doesn't work out, or I get bored with it, I have another career. (I also have a wife who makes money). Having these options will make you a much less bitter man.

Sage advice! This is a fantastic piece of advice and one of the more coherent well thought out things that I've read on this site! Excellent POST!

I agree, it is an excellent post...

I am currently an engineer in San Diego and close to getting my commercial license. My advice to you is the following: First and foremost, figure out if you really enjoy flying. Take a couple intro flights, either at kmyf, ksee, ksdm, or kcrq. If you do then continue your aspiration in becoming a pilot. IMO (and just MY opinion) personally suggest not getting your masters at the moment. Every company I have worked for has offered to pay for it, willing you can do school part time and work full time. If you are a US citizen I would highly suggest you get an engineering job working for the government (i.e. SPAWAR) because 1) job stability 2) they will pay for grad school if you choose this route 3) relaxed atmosphere - easy to do flight training weekday nights and weekends and 4) MOST IMPORTANTLY - you get "Career Status" after working two years MEANING IF YOU EVER LEAVE YOU WILL HAVE A MUCH, MUCH EASIER TIME GETTING EMPLOYED AGAIN IF YOU RE-APPLY (I.E. FURLOUGH) and you keep your pay grade. This is this "back up career" that everyone keeps yapping at!! Personally I think once you start flying you will concentrate more on your flying ratings rather than grad school but that was just my case :)

My two cents:

Keep as many options open as you can. Keep expenses down. When the industry turns around (and it will), you'll be in a much better position to see if you still want to fly for a living. Don't go into debt to fly. Pay as you go. In the mean time, put your degree to work. Have fun learning to fly and/or keep on doing it. I still look back with good memories of my GA days.

A couple of things to keep in mind: There will be nobody to fly the plane. Retirements will start cranking back up in 2012. Who will fly the plane? Zero to hero programs in the toilet, fewer military pilots and a gutted general aviation community doesn't produce the numbers required.

I also must commend you on this passage. This is an excellent piece of writing and incredibly true. You have to follow your dreams because you will never be truely happy otherwise. However, have a back up plan because your dream can run you over while chasing it, and in this industry, it happens all too much. This I have learned through experience

I'm going to piggy back on this topic rather then start one of my own, and I'm looking for advice/ideas.

I'm a 360ish hour CFI. I haven't had a steady student yet since I got my CFI is October of last year. My bachelors of science degree is in Aviation Technology. I do wonder if I shot my self in the foot (so to speak) by doing that.

I do have a full time job (sort of) in the hospitality industry, but I am looking to get out. I'd like to get in to the aviation industry, but everything is either holding as is or downsizing.

I can't fly for the military. I'm deaf in one ear so that crosses me out from getting a first class military medical.

I have thought about going back to school for a masters, but in what I have no idea. I dunno how I could take my current undergrad degree and aplly it to a masters. I never really thought of going on to get my masters when I was working on my undergrad.

So, do you now have a first class FAA medical with a waiver? :confused:

Please don't take it wrong but I wonder how that works? You must be wearing some kind of hearing device on the ear, right?

A few months ago I flew with a captain who's almost deaf on one ear. He said himself he didn't think he'd pass his next FAA medical without a hearing device of some sort. It was an interesting flight to say the least - and he was only “almost deaf” on one ear... :eek:

If you want to get into aviation, then keep building your time and skills. Don't go into debt as you do it. When the industry turns around, you'll be ready.

I wouldn't get a masters just to get one. If you want to get into a field that requires one, then by all means, do it. It just won't help at the airline interview.

Your aviation degree will help a bit at the airline interview, but will be far less value to other employers. Education seldoms hurts.

Aviation employment is like a wave. It goes up and down. To many in the industry, we down play the effect the economy has on others. Everything is down. We will look back on this time as one of the worst downturns since the depression. Individual sucess in aviation is based on were in the cycle you get on and pure luck. Call me in 23 years and I'll tell you if I made the correct choices. The second issue is that aviation has many paths and unless your hell bent on an airline career, then keep your eyes open. There are many ways to make a living off aviation.

I have gotten a first class civilian medical, and the only waiver I have on it is for glasses. I am totally deaf in the left ear. I have been so since birth. But I really only notice my loss in loud situations, or when the person is talking extremely quietly and is directly on my left side. When it comes to flying, I hear everything just fine through the headset. I dunno why your captain would think he wouldn't pass unless his 'good' ear was damaged too.


I have talked with military pilots and I have been told that the military flight medical is more stringent, and for reasons I can see why.


FAR 67.107
(a) The person shall demonstrate acceptable hearing by at least one of the following.

1. Demonstrate an ability to hear an average conversational voice in a quiet room, using both ears, at a distance of 6feet from the examiner with the back turned towards the examiner.

2. Demonstrate an acceptable understanding of speech as determined by audiometric speech discrimination testing to a score of at least 70% obtained in one ear or in a sound field environment.

3. Provided acceptable results of pure tone audiometric testing of unaided hearing acuity according to the worst possible thresholds, using the calibration standards of the American National Standards Institute.

This is what I'm planning to do:
I'm graduating this May with a BS degree in Mechanical Engineering. I'm planning to work as an engineer for a while and use my paycheck for flight training. I hope to get most of my tickets in the next 2-3 years. Then i'll start instructing do other things on the side to get the hours. Once the economy and hiring shot up, i hope to be in a good position to be hired and switch to a permanent flying career then.
As for your case, I think a MS in aero engineering is probably a good way to go. Or may be get an engineering job and finance your flying. New grad should earn about 55-65k/yr... with enough passion for flying (save all you can), u'll be able to pay for all your flying within 2 yrs... Then you can go back to school for master or phd and instruct on the side... Just my .02 cent. In fact i'll think i'll get back to school for a master within several yrs too...
Best regards,
VD

Hmm, interesting...
"...I really only notice my loss in loud situations, or when the person is talking extremely quietly and is directly on my left side..."

I'm sure your doc knows better than me... Having said that I'm very surpised... We don't have voice activated headsets instead we use simple Telex headsets. In other words we hear ATC via the headset but when we talk to each other the sound does not go through the headset. The B757 in particular gets very noisy so I'm curious how that'd work out for you...

Either way, back to the topic...

Nice post it speaks volumes as to the state of the industry as a "worker bee."

This isn't flame but does anyone else find the above statements troubling?

Fly Now...but Have a Backup!
 

Tom,

No industry is ever safe! Ever! About seven years ago, my wife and I were just chugging along enjoying our life as newlyweds when one day she calls and says that her company of 15 years had asked her to leave. 15 years! It was with a well-established food service company called Sysco Foods. You might have heard about them. They are one of, if not THE, leader in food service. We were devastated. They offered her a severance package and we moved on.

Me on the other hand had just joined SkyWest and though things have been challenging over the years even with a company like SkyWest, who does very well and has a lot of cash in the back, I have done well. Ironic, she has a "secure" job and I have an "airline" job and she is the one let go! Hmmmm!

In the past couple years, I have seen a lot of companies furlough and a lot go out of business. It is a risk we as pilots take.

So, to try and answer your question. If you want to fly, go fly! Enjoy it! But...have a back up plan!

Personally, I believe that once the media "scare tactic" and gloom-and-doom reports are over, the US and the world will grow AGAIN at an unprecedented rate. If you get into flying now and get your ratings and hours, which could take a few years, you will be in a position to benefit from the upswing and the need for pilots. This will get you at the top of the hiring pool when it happens. If you wait for "just the right time," you will be at the bottom of the hiring pool, then, when things slow down AGAIN, if you are at the bottom, you will be the first to go.

So follow the dream...but do it NOW!

Another thought, someone earlier said "Grad School." Not a bad idea, but my thought is that you should look closer at starting something where you don't have to rely on someone else. I started a window cleaning business, I write a blog (Almost the Speed of Sound), and I produce niche websites, all of which give me a nice "backup" income and allows me to enjoy flying a heckuva lot more.

If you haven't read Robert Kiyosaki's "Rich Dad, Poor Dad" book I recommend you get it. Also, George S Clason's "The Richest Man in Babylon" is a must read too.

Finally, I posted an article on my blog about the 5 Things Every Pilot Needs to Know. Also check out my Trusted Money Making Ideas for Pilots section. Maybe that will help!

To Your Flying Success...

Jeff

Hello guys,

Im not native english speaker for info :)

I bring it up this topic, by chance, as I was searching any back up plan and the topic appeared just on time.

Despite Im not in US, I saw many interesting topics here compared to european forums airlines. The outlook is different, but IMO when I observe things in Usa it will happen then in Europe most of the time.

so, I am in a stucked situation.

I have been CFI (actually called just FI here) and was pursuing a job in an airline.
I was ready to be expat in Asia etc and had some interview but did not work so well....for exemple for Cathay Pacific. I was crazy when I have been called for a stage in HK !

Guess what, once there, I had a doubt if I would have like the life in HK :( I was feeling bad because as futur pilot I should be happy to relocate anywhere for this job...but I don't know why...the feeling was, for once, stronger than my passion.

anyway I failed, and despite I was a bit disappointed, after few days, I was relieved. Sorry I can not even explain why !

so!
now, the thing is I don't work as pilot at all...to get any job in aviation is a HELL tough ! Even as instructor !

Im 29, and I am seriously thinking to go back to Univeristy and get a degree. As technicians or engineer.

The problem is I am stucked now.

Because I do'nt fly, but I only have a high school diploma. I don't know what is in U.S but here it's a certificated allowing to go to University. So let's face it, it's worthless ! (for job market)

At 29, I have 2 solutions :
-go back to Uni for at least 3 years (technician level) or 5 (engineer).
- doing "student jobs" and wait for an airline position..

The second case may be risky IMO as I can not predict how many years I would wait and if I would pass any interview then.

Fortunately, I am young enough (what do you think ?) and I am single, (not even a g/f) and do not have kids.

The only thing I am worried is, if I finish at 34 y/o, do you think I could be interesting to employers in the engineering field ?
Because I will be in competition with younger than me for sure.

I was thinking about engineering in aeronautics because I have hours on piston, it could be interesting for employers. No ?
But I was thinking about engineering in general too, for exemple, I would be interested to work in water treatment if I can not be pilot.


Plus, I saw the reply from OldSF3Dude, which is interesting.

I was thinking, maybe I should study before being in airline for having back up career.
When I was 18 y/O I just never had this advice and would not listen to them maybe . If I knew it I would have studied before :(.

Cospilot posted good subject saying that industries are not safe anyway.

But I still think that airlines it tougher. In some Europeans countries, you can count the number of airlines on one hand. So the choice is really small.

Despite in other field like engineering, if I am not wrong, you have tons of choices.
Rails, trains, planes, cars, boats, and then environment, buildings etc

Well, I just hope that it's not too late for me.

I feel a bit frustrated though. Pilot was my dream, but now being nearly 30 y/o, my way of thinking seems to change a bit.
I was agree to be expat at any cost 2 years ago, and now I feel a bit worried to live like that all my life.

I talk to some pilots, and many just go from asia to middle east and so on. I don't even know how they do that. Well...it's a way of life for sure. But I am not sure that I am ready to do that. And I feel guilty for that...maybe Im not passionnated enough ?? :/

and according to the Thread title, I was thinking that it seems that the normal way now....moving, relocate for off shore contract and no job security etc... When I see the offers, it's really worrying. That's my feeling.


Willing to read your advices.

regards

Air National Guard
 

It's already been said, but it's worth repeating. If you have your degree and can pass a class one flying medical, go to the ANG. Check out baseops.net for details and job postings. Whatever you do, DO NOT go in debt to be a civilian pilot. The return on investment is not there nor will it be there in the first 10 years once you complete your training. QOL during the first 10 years is doable for someone single, but can be borderline horrendous for someone with a family. Flying in the ANG will more than suffice your "need" to fly and prevent you from going into debt to do it.

Thanks a lot BackintheLPA.

well unfortunately I have debts...already.
The way it works in Europe is hell unlogical. I have already IR and CPL and still refund my bank.
So I do feel the pain about finances right now.
That's why I have been thinking to start a degree despite my older age.

Networking
 

Tom,

There is some really good advice from a few of the posts here. If I could add something to the conversation it would be one thing:

Make as many contacts as possible.

The first Part 135 job that I got was because of who I knew. The simple act of networking is the one single thing that is going to drive your professional aviation career. The second job that I got was in part because I had a good friend already working with the company. Thats not to say that you do not still have to be a good interviewer and have the skills to perform the job.

Obviously not knowing anything really about you and whether or not you are comfortable walking up to pilots sitting in an FBO some where and ask them questions I would suggest that start earlier rather than later. I can say from personal experience that I wish I would have taken advantage of asking more questions and getting email address to stay in touch. The point that I would like to make here is that most pilots that are sitting in an FBO are bored. Unless they are having a bad day or are just not social most pilots would love to talk to you and discourage you from getting into aviation.

If you walked up to me today and you asked me if you should get into aviation, I would tell you to do something other than be a pilot. Your more likely to find a job where you are making enough money to either rent an airplane or join a flying club. Remember a passion doesn't have to be a career.

Also if you are single stay that way. Even if they say they understand and they are willing to make it work, this will change. I found this out shortly after I started dating my wife after I explained before we started dating that my career is time consuming and I will be away.

Some questions to ask yourself:

1. Is aviation worth giving up some of your relationships?
2. Do you want to make very little for many years of your life?
3. Are you going to go into debt to make a dream come true?
4. Are you ready to live with your parents until your in your late 20's because you cant afford anything besides a crash pad in some major city?
5. Does an aviation lifestyle fit your picture of the best QOL you can have? (When it comes down to it take happiness over the desire to be a professional pilot)


Hope you have found the answer or suggestions you were hoping to find.

Cheers,