Multi Engine Private Pilot Initial
 

I have a new student that wants to get his initial private pilot certificate in a multi engine. He wants to fly to airports to airports in Florida for business purposes with me in the plane, have me wait for 2-3 hours at the FBO while he conducts his business and then fly back in the twin. The flight training will be done before or during the trip.

Like most, if not all flight schools, our flight school and insurance company will not allow a non-rated pilot to solo in the twin. So my question is - can he solo as the "solo manipulator of the airplane" for his first solo in the twin? I'm thinking he can't because...

"§ 61.87 Solo requirements for student pilots.
(a) General. A student pilot may not operate an aircraft in solo flight unless
that student has met the requirements of this section. The term ‘‘solo flight’’ as used in this subpart means that flight time during which a student pilot is the sole occupant of the aircraft or that flight time during which the student performs the duties of a pilot in command of a gas balloon or an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember."

We also have a glass cockpit G1000 182T, but he can't solo in that plane without a private pilot certificate. These are the only 2 aircraft that he wants to fly in since they have a higher cruising speed compared to the 172s/152s.

Any ideas? Should I keep him in the C172 for training and do the business trips in the twin with some training? I'm not sure if he can keep up with 2 different training paths at the same time.

I have no idea if this applies to PVT-Multi or not, I've only used it for doing initial CPL-Multi, but do some research into the term "Supervised Solo/PIC". It was designed to allow CPL students to meet the solo requirements in a twin, because of insurance restrictions on actual solo. Basically the CFI is along for the ride, but does not touch or do anything. The student logs "Supervised solo" as the sole manipulator. Might help you out.

He's got this much ambition and money, he should buy his own airplane and then the insurance issue for your company is a moot point.

He owns his own company, I believe his clients will be paying him back for the plane and all travel expenses when he flies out for business.

Two issues...

1) Part 61 allows "supervised solo" in a ME airplane for commercial pilot applicants, but does not to my knowledge make such an allowance for private applicants. It would about impossible to get a student pilot insured to solo a twin, and for good reason. I wouldn't sign off a student pilot for that unless he was Chuck Yeager and Neil Armstrong combined.

2) Be careful flying to those business meetings...if the FAA decided you were doing this more for transportation and less for flight instruction they will bust you for running an unlicensed charter op. About the only way to safely do this is if the student owns the airplane. Otherwise you are in a potential grey area.

^^^ Thank you for your input. I sent an e-mail to our local DPE, he suggested that I tell the student get a FAA medical to prove intent of flight instruction.

Still checking on the "supervised solo" requirement for private pilot certificates in a twin.

Does anyone have the 14 CFR regulation for "Part 61 allows "supervised solo" in a ME airplane for commercial pilot applicants"? The only thing that I found was...
14 CFR 61.129 (b)(4) - 10 hours of solo flight time in a multiengine airplane or 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of pilot in command in a multiengine airplane with an authorized instructor (either of which may be credited towards the flight time requirement in paragraph (b)(2) of this section), on the areas of operation listed in §61.127(b)(2) of this part...

That's it right there... the "or 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of pilot in command in a multiengine airplane with an authorized instructor" is the legal way of referring to supervised solo.

Just taking a quick look through the regs, I don't see a similar exception for private (it just has the standard "solo requirement" language). Still, it would be worth checking on... I'm sure this question must have come up before somewhere.

I found out through a DPE yesterday that one can meet the solo requirements for a private certificate in a C-172 and do the private checkride in the multi. I haven't had a chance to check to see if it meets all 14 CFR 61 requirements, but I found that interesting. :cool:

I've always been leery of the customer who want "flight training" on the way to and from business meetings. It sure seems like a way to circumnavigate the commercial regs and take a 90 vacation....

The problem is that even if the student really wants flight training and is just trying to manage his time efficiently, the FAA historically takes a dim view of instruction flights which have an obvious dual purpose. They cannot easily determine whether it's an instruction flight with business travel incidental, or business travel with instruction incidental.

Safest thing is to have the student provide the airplane...that way you are not in danger of running an illegal charter op.

Also I would agree that if the student has no medical, has not taken any PPL classes or the written test, you are on thin ice.

Let him rent the A/C. Then have him pay you pilot services (a day rate 2-3 hundred). I was doing this for about 5 years 2 to 3 times a week.

I was once ramped by the feds. I was told "ya know a lot of people use pt91 flight instruction to get around part 135". My responce was yes I know but I think I can prove that I was not trying to "get around Pt 135".

He said how can you do that?. I said that the A/C that we were in (a Baron) was on a 135 cert and that I was current in the A/C on that cert. and that if I wanted to do the trip 135 all I would have to do is fill out a manifest and go. He said then why don't you do that?

My answer was because he wants to learn how to fly the A/C and if we were 135 I could not allow him to touch anything.

He said he would have to talk to "legal" and get back with me. That was 15+ years ago and still no word!

There's two ways to answer the question.

If your client really want's to learn how to fly. Enroll in AOPA's legal program, because you'll need it. Have your client take and pass the written exam. Have him obtain a thrid class medical. It would be tough for the FAA to say that he's not serious if he does both. Have him talk to the owner of the flight school about insurance. I have found that all insurance issues can be resolved by money. Have your client pay for the required coverage. Think about doing some of the training in the C-182 (talk about insurance on this one too) and having him do his solo flights in the single first. Sell him on the idea of getting both the SEL and MEL tickets at the same time.

If your client really wants to just fly to and from meetings, then have him do it above board either in his own plane or under a FAR 135 charter basis. Your ticket is worth far more to you than one "whale" client. You will be turned into the FAA. There are too many people out there that would call it in.

Thank you all for your input. The aircraft (any of them) will be rented through the flight school by the student and I get paid by the flight school for flight instruction. I've been told that if I sit around at a FBO for 3 hours waiting for him, I get paid for "pilot services" at the same rate as flight instruction.

I agree with you 'jonnyjetprop', one client is not worth my pilot certificate.
I've told him about the medical, he should have it by his next flight and will tell him about the written exam too. I plan to have him solo on the single engine. He doesn't just want to fly to/from meetings, he wants to get his private pilot certificate but also wants to take advantage of having an airplane to save time. I have a syllabus that I carry with me on all flights to document what was done on the flight lesson and I also enter the date on which the flight was completed.

On another note, he threw up on his first flight in a C-172 a few days ago and says that he has motion sickness when he does not have any visual references, so I'll see how he flies under the hood on his next flight.

Sounds like legit flight instruction to me, but be careful. It has some characteristics of charter, and the FAA has sometimes tried to hold that the presence of flight instruction does not automatically get you off the hook if you are also conducting a charter-like flight. In their view the only clean way to do it is for XC flights to not have any purpose other than training...especially no business purpose. I would not let the details of this arrangement circulate around the field. Any 135 ticket holder would dime you out to the FSDO if he heard about this, rightly or wrongly, and then you would have to deal with that mess.