ATP just promised the moon...whats the truth?
 

I am a 31yr old firefighter for a major dept in metro Atlanta. I have a wife and 2 kids and "survive" on 50,000 a year. I have always wanted to fly. I was close to joining ATP's self paced program (0-hero). Im a vet so after VA would have taken on about 40K grand debt. I began to question my career change and if it was possible. I read an article that said ATP is now only hiring 30% of their grads for CFI positions after completion of training. I called and questioned and was told "your the type of person we are looking for, older, professional, and would not have a problem getting hired as a ATP CFI...for sure" Yah...OK. Then I became concerned w/ the pool of potential pilots growing everyday and nobody hiring. So I questioned...was told "the best time to train is during a downturn and that I would have no problem in 1 1/2 years getting a job that the "regionals will be hiring like crazy". When I asked about the ridiculous pay, that I had no idea was the case BTW, I was told that it's only like that the first year and it's realistic to make 35K-40K in yr 2 and then upgrade to make "good" money. Then I stumble on this forum! Anyone out there who can offer good advice that is not just disgruntled would be appreciated. Be safe!

I wouldn't. The boom of airlines hiring in the next few years isn't going to stop six months after that, it will keep going. When everybody starts hiring, all the furloughed people will get hired first, followed by the rest of the bunch, so it'll be even a year or two after that starts before you might have a shot at an interview. So let's say three years from now you get a job at a regional, and you have a relatively short upgrade of two years, that means it'll take you five years just to get up to your current salary. If you "survive" on 50k, how will you do for no more than 25k for the next five years? My suggestion is wait for when things start up again. Their zero to hero programs can take as few as 90 days, anyway, so if things look really good, you'll only be 3 months behind the curve.

They are going to say anything they can to get you to train with them. Remember, they are running a business. The airlines are not what they used to be. I spent a year and a half at Comair before getting furloughed in November and still haven't found another job flying. The most junior captain at Comair has been on the property for around 10 years.. that is a long time to be an FO. First year FO pay is around $19,000/yr, second is $30,600/yr and it increases about $1/hr per year until you top out at $36,900/yr. Keep in mind this is at the minimum guarantee of 75 hrs/mo. There will be times where you will fly more than this, but when on reserve you probably wont exceed it unless you are a line holder and that'll give you about 85 hours/mo. In 10 years if you upgrade the base pay is $65,700 and it caps at 18 years seniority at $83,700... but it's a long road to get there and at this point, with everything sliding backwards, the upgrade time is indefinite.

There are about 300 of us on the street with no recall in sight. The sad reality is that Comair is considered one of the better paying regionals just behind ASA. Check out the airline profile pages to see the others.

There are many others out there like me who cannot find work. To say the job market is super competitive is an understatement. I really dont see how a company could tell you that you would have a job when you finish if there are no openings... maybe you will get lucky, maybe you wont. At this point, with the best interest of your family in mind, the $50K you are making now is way higher than I will see for many years and I'd stay put if I were in your shoes.

Your ratings don't say where they came from. Get them with as little debt as you can. ATP isn't going to set you apart or get you ahead. The only thing they'll do is separate you from your cash.

Second, don't expect what they told you. I'm sitting reserve and I'll be lucky to clear 30 this year.

If it's something you want to do, take your time. Get your ratings somewhere that doesn't cost a ton of money, and keep being somebody we all look up to by being a hero. Lots of firefighters in my family. I have the utmost respect for you guys. With the typical schedule you guys work (24 hr shifts) you'll have lots of time to work on ratings, then instruct and build time while keeping a real job that keeps food on the table and puts some cash in the bank for those first couple years.

They covered it pretty good above. Don't listen to any projections especially when they're trying to get your business. Something to consider: Last year I was around the 200th hired at my regional out of a forcast of about 1000 for the year. They stopped around 250 and by September I was on the street.

I have to agree with boiler and Diver and Pip. Right now you have something that a lot of pilots wish they had: a job. Hang on to it for now.
The airlines are furloughing and I don't see much happening until 2012 or 2013, as the older guys inch closer to age 65.
What I would recommend is work out your budget, go out to the local FBO and get your Private Pilot certificate. Enjoy flying and build some time. If you've got the money, start on your instrument rating. When it looks like the airlines are coming back, then you can decide if you want to take the plunge. By that time you will be very familiar with the ins and outs of flight training and aviation.
You've got time. Enjoy your family.
As far as ATP is concerned, who knows. My gut feeling is that pilot starts are down. You might get hired as a CFI, but that one student that they're going to give you isn't going to pay the bills.
Cheers,
Hog

I doubt they are even hiring 30% of their students to be flight instructors. What they have been doing is letting go of instructors and hiring others. Why? not sure. But there is a long waiting list for CFI's right now with that school.

Wow, I really expected a few flames from this thread already. I didn't expect to see so many honest, level headed responses. These are definitely the same responses I would give. Take it slow and cheap, you're gonna have plenty of time to find a job. Take this as an opprotunity to study deeper and get a better education than most of us that tried to get through asap. Good luck!!!!

I agree with the above. There is no rush in today's market to jump headfirst into this profession. Take lessons on the side with a legit CFI.

Of course if you're sold on ATP, I'd say the following... (You don't mention if the Missus has a high-paying job, so I'll assume no for now.)

Consider staying at your current gig and bank the 40 grand (plus another 20 grand living expenses?) before you go to ATP. You don't want any debt as a struggling CFI for what could be several years trying to build time without students.

Pay off all credit cards, auto loans, etc. See how tight you can get your current household budget, then save every penny.

If you can't save $20,000 a year for two years while you're at a $50,000/year job, you may have trouble getting by on only $25-35,000 FO pay.

If your family doesn't like "existing" on 50 grand, see how they like "existing" on 30 grand. Then tell them it will get better in 2013 or 2020, depending on factors entirely beyond your control.

How many years you spend in the right seat depends 100% on how your regional plays its cards, and 0% on your pilot skills, dedication, hard work, and personal sacrifice.

Can you go to ATP, get hired by a regional, and in two years be making Captain pay? It has been done, but not due to hard work alone. Substantial luck is involved. How much luck will you be bringing to your new regional airline?

have you used APC pay scales to come up with best-case and worst-case scenarios? Compare them to your current job. (Throw in $30,000 for a quarter share of an airplane to fly for fun on weekends.)

Best case - 2 years instructing, 2 years Regional FO, 2 years Regional Captain, then the rest of your career as a FO at the Majors (Maybe the last 8-12 years narrowbody Captain).

Worst Case - 4 years CFI, 10 years Regional FO, get furloughed, 5 years Regional FO at another airline, then 15 years Regional Captain. Or something like that.

Worst Case is not very likely, but neither is an engine failure. And you have to be prepared for engine failures.

Good luck, you have a tough decision ahead of you. I put my family through the same decision 9 years ago. I hope we both have happy endings someday.

This is probably the best advice on this subject. If it is the love of flying that you seek, there is no reason to NOT start learning how to fly. By working on your Private at your local airport, you not only get to fly, but you are also supporting the local economy and the local CFI (where you hope to be at some point). Additionally, the costs are considerably cheaper and you can go at your own pace.

So, you can keep your current job and enjoy the benifits of flight at the same time! And, best of all, your family can be a part of the whole process!

Best of luck to you!

Boomer, I am a flight instructor for ATP at both of their atlanta locations. I take my job very seriously and I believe that I perform to the best of my ability. I have a 100% pass rate, first attempt and I resent the fact that you think just because of where I instruct that I am not a "legit" CFI. Why is it that you feel the need to bash CFIs at ATP because you do not like the company I work for. Maybe it was unintentional but be careful how you word things. Elijahmike I wish you the best of luck in your decision as to which route to take to learn to fly. If you have any questions about ATP do not hesitate to schedule a tour at one of the facilities in ATL, or PM and I will be happy to answer any questions you have.