? on logging X-C
 

I have a friend of mine who owns a C172 that wants to go on a long X-C within the next week or so. I'm currently a PPL, but I have only flown a C152 and Piper Warrior. If we take turns flying PIC, then can I legally log time in a C172? If not, atleast safety pilot for some total time?

Nope and nope.

You can not have passengers in the aircraft as a student pilot. Also, the only time that you can legally log anything other than PIC time (aside from dual given) in an aircraft that requires only one crewmember is when they are under a view limiting device.

Ok, well neither of us are student pilots.

Let me ask this now. I am currently an instrument student and I know someone that is also flying a 172 that would like to do some instrument proficiency work under the hood. If I go along and act as safety can THAT be logged? I have not been checked out in a 172 which is my concern about logging it...

Ranch,

You can definately log any time that you are the PIC. Your certificate is Airplane Single Engine Land, so anything that is an airplane, has one engine, and lands solely on a runway that doesn't require a type rating in you are legally permitted to log time as PIC in. (Provided that you have any necessary endorsements such as high alt/complex/high performance).

If you act as the safety pilot, you may also log the time flown as safety pilot (however remember that to log the time, somebody has to be under the hood for the entire duration if you are going to log XC).

One other note to consider... you might want to check out your friends insurance policy before going- that might be the only catch is if something goes wrong. Remember that the person that is PIC should be designated before the flight- his insurance policy might require him to the be PIC... Or it might have time in type/dual received limits.

Hey Ranch,
FJosh is right on all counts. Especially the insurance thing.
ASEL is ASEL.
Remember that your role as safety pilot is primarily to check for other traffic or obstructions. You should brief the flight well, and make sure that if you have to take controls you say " my controls, he says " your controls and lets go completely to insure a smooth transition of the flight controls. It is amazing how many problems have occured because either noone was flying or both pilots were flying.
Communication is critcal.
Have fun!

yeah, I misread that. My bad

As long as you're rated for the same category and class of aircraft you're fine (assuming your bud's 172 doesn't have an STC for like 210hp which would require a HP signoff). Bring along the foggles.

Mistah Pip,
I figured that you thought they were both students..

Thanks to everyone for chiming in. I'll be sure to check on the insurance thing for sure. Happy Flying.

For whatever reason, I thought it said ranch4x4 was working on his, private. I guess that's just proof positive that I should be sleeping rather than sitting at the FBO at 1am working...

here is another question.... this is hypothetical though

if i am a private pilot and ONLY have Piper Warrior and Arrow time, can I act as PIC of a Cessna 172 and be the sole manipulator of the flight controls?

Absolutely. Remember, FARs and insurance are 2 completly different beasts. Although you may be LEGAL to act as PIC, you may not be covered by your insurance company. In other words, it may be perfectly legal, just not very smart.

Three distinct areas here -

1. PIC as defined in 14 CFR part 1.1 - ...has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight... This is the qualified pilot who signs for the aircraft, i.e., on the rental agreement or has ownership or flight release, etc., and is designated as that pilot before or during the flight.

2. Safety pilot - a required crewmember under part 91.109(b)(1) and (2). Note nowhere in 91.109 does it say that person is PIC. Just that they have at least a PPL and are rated in category and class (no type rating required) and they have adequate vision. Part 61.51(e)(1)(iii) states a person may log PIC time when he..."is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under...the regulations under which the flight is conducted" (in this case 91.109(b)). The FAA wrote this to allow for the logging of flight time by a pilot under various circumstances, of which being a safety pilot is one. But acting as PIC does not in any way relieve the pilot who is PIC responsible for the flight - part 1.1 - of his or her duties. They are two totally separate things. The FAA in written interpretations outside of the FAR's have stated that while a pilot is performing duties as a safety pilot he is acting as PIC for the purposes of 61.51, but not for the purposes of Part 1.1.

There is no requirement in 91.109(b)(1) for the person to hold high-performance and/or high altitude signoffs, again because you are not PIC (part 1.1), just a safety pilot.

3. Insurance requirements. May be anything. However, they usually apply to the PIC as defined in Part 1.1. So yes, one should check to be sure the policy covers simulated instrument flight with a safety pilot who meets the requirements of 91.109. The insurance company may have additional requirements for anyone in the role of a safety pilot for that aircraft.

One additional note. We've seen a lot of pilots coming to interviews recently with time logged as a safety pilot while building multi-engine time. There are a number of schools pushing this type of program. This is fine, just as long as it's logged correctly. We've seen a number of pilots logging the whole flight as a safety pilot, instead of just the portion of the flight in which the other pilot is under the hood. For example, if the total flight time is 2.0, then the safety pilot should only be logging in about 1.8 to 1.9. The taxi time, takeoff (unless it was performed under the hood), and landing are usually performed without the hood on, so you are not a safety pilot. We've also seen the safety pilot logging the landing. If you didn't make the landing, you can't log it. Which leads to the last problem...if you are a safety pilot building cross-country time for the purposes of your commercial certificate (that 50 hours of cross-country time) and you don't make the landing, then you can't log the cross-country time for that purpose (Part 61.1(b)(3)(ii)(B)). While your DPE at the time of your commercial checkride should catch this, we had one person come into the interview with this problem. He wasn't qualified to hold the commercial certificate because he was short the required cross-country time.

Two separate issues. Any time you are "sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which you are rated" (category, class, type, and sign-offs if necessary) you may log flight time as "pilot-in-command" - part 61.51(e)(1)(i).

This doesn't necessarily mean you are PIC as defined in part 1.1. To be that person you must..."(1) has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight; (2) has been designated as pilot in command before or during the flight; and (3) hold the appropriate category, class, and type rating, if appropriate, for the conduct of the flight". This is the pilot who owns, signs the rental agreement, signs the flight release, etc. for the flight.

If you are the sole occupant of the aircraft, you are the sole manipulator and PIC in flight by default. If you are riding along with a rated pilot buddy who rented the aircraft, but you are flying the aircraft and you are rated, then you can "log" PIC time. However he is still the PIC responsible.

So to answer the question, "can you be PIC of a 172?". Sure, get a check-out and signed off for insurance purposes, rent the airplane, and go flying (you're PIC responsible - part 1.1). While you are doing your checkout with the instructor, you can log the time you're sole manipulator of the controls as "PIC" (part 61.51), but he is still "PIC responsible".

Let's say my friend needs instrument proficency and I agree to act as his safety pilot. Let it be understood that I am a PPL and have been checked out in the airplane prior to the ride. He wants to fly holding patterns at night (no need for foggles right?) Would I be able to log NIGHT, INSTRUMENT (ACTUAL OR SIM?), and PIC?

Let's also say the flight lasted 2.0 hours, but I only acted as PIC for 1.8. Do I log the total time as 2.0 and PIC as 1.8..... OR do I log 1.8 as both total and PIC?

Sorry, I know this is getting technical.

Not saying that I'm in the same boat (program was too structured *bleh*), but if a pilot was in that situation, how would you remedy it? Get the hours and take a 709? Or a regular checkride? Or could you get the hours and be qualified to hold the certificate from thence forth?

4x4,

If your buddy wants to log time as flight by reference to instruments, he must use a view limiting device like a hood or foggles. The only time you can log is the time in which he is flying under the foggles. However, he is still the PIC because he is the sole manipulator of the controls. Since you are not flying by reference to instruments, and looking outside for traffic and terrain avoidance as a good safety pilot should be, you can not log any instrument time. I had a discussion with our POI on the subject. I have heard so many different interpretations of this rule that I wanted some clarity and this is what he basically said:

When acting as a safety pilot, you will only be able to log the total time, and as for PIC it will be however long you are the sole manipulator of the controls. Therefore, you might get .2 in a 1 hour flight if your buddy is really slow in putting his hood on.

Safety pilot time is pretty useless in my book because you're not getting much out of it. I usually don't log it but will gladly go up with anybody that needs an extra set of eyes and sign their logbook. The only time I log it is when I'm in a multi because that's the time that's hard to get. If you're working through your ratings with hopes of becomming a professional in the industry those four or five hours of safety pilot time can easily be made up in a good day of flight instruction (and that's PIC no matter what!).

Assumptions: Your friend rents/owns the aircraft (say a C-172) and the both of you decide before the flight he is PIC (part 1.1) and you are the safety pilot (part 91.109). Because he needs an instrument proficiency he is not IFR current and therefor the flight is conducted entirely in VMC.

You may log only the time that he is under the hood and the aircraft is in VMC (safety pilot is not required in IMC). If the flight is 2.0 total duration, at night, and he is under the hood for 1.7 of the 2.0, you may log 1.7 Total Duration of Flight, 1.7 Night, 1.7 Single Engine, and 1.7 PIC. This PIC time is not part 1.1 PIC time. It is PIC time the FAA allows toward certificates and ratings. But when you get to the airlines, they will most likely want you to deduct that time from your PIC total because is wasn't PIC time as defined in part 1.1. They will also most likely deduct any time you logged as "PIC" while receiving dual instruction, because your instructor was part 1.1 PIC, not you.

Something to note. There is no such column in most log books for "Total Time". That column we all use is "total duration of flight" with the emphasis on "flight". There is no definition in the 14 CFR's for "total time" and any time you log in "total duration of flight" must occur "in flight" (or taxi before flight with the intention of flight or at the completion of a flight - block to block). Time in ANY simulator or FTD, including full-motion level C and D does not count as "total duration of flight" and shouldn't be added in there.

There's a story of an American Airlines captain that was transitioning to a new aircraft several years ago. At the time, the FAA was on a kick (still are) to review all log books for completion of the aeronautical requirements for all certificates and ratings. When the FAA inspector reviewed his logbooks, they found him short on some cross country requirement for the commercial. They "pulled" his ATP and Commercial, made him rent an airplane (the story is he rented a 172), fly the cross country, and then rescheduled his checkride for the transition. Whether this story is true or embellished, I don't know.

However, when it happened at our flight school, the checkride would stop, the missing aeronautical event would be completed, the checkride rescheduled, and on successful completion, all certificates and ratings restored. I think the FAA has been out covering the mistakes of DPE's with this "unofficial" policy. It happened to me. I was missing my instructor's signature for my two hour VFR night cross country for my Commercial. When I went for my CFI, it was caught before the checkride started when the DPE reviewed my logbook. I went out the next night, completed the flight with the instructor, rescheduled, and successfully passed my CFI. I was "warned" not to exercise the privileges of my commercial certificate until I completed the flight.

Great post, that's all the information I wanted. Now for a hypothetical question. If I log the 1.7 total, 1.7 night, 1.7 PIC and since there is no column labled "safety pilot" how would anyone know that it is indeed safety pilot time?

When I do go to log it, should I put "Acted as safety PIC for 1.7 hours for a 2.0 hour flight" in the remarks section?

You do not have to identify safety pilot time as such, but most people do. It would kind of stick out though because you probably didn't log any landings as S/P! The guy under the hood has to log the safety pilot's name, but not vice versa. An employer would probably consider it dishonest not to identify S/P time as such. However, most employers will give you credit for safety pilot time so there's probably no reason to cover it up.

Quite honestly I don't think anybody gives a rip, if you go to a regional with a thousand hours in your log book and 200 in the multi column Nobody and I mean Nobody is going to sit there and decide what was logged as 1.1 PIC.

When you go to your next job the only thing that is going to matter is how much time you put in Part 121. They are not going to care if you logged time going to the McDonalds when you were in flight school.

I went to a pilot mill for my instrument and while building X C time we would log saftey pilot again for only the time we were safety pilot, so if the leg was 1.9 we would usually make it simple and knock off .3. That was consevative but who cared if we cheated ourselves out of the .1.

We always logged it SP for the put the persons name next too it. Do not log the landing, but the 1.7 counts for PIC this will be important if you have the opportunity to fly 135 with only 1200 hours. I believe you need 500 PIC, and nobody is going to care where you got it. It will also be helpful if you are in a position to need an ATP at 1500 hours. There are a lot of guys who get burned on this too late and that much time is hard to cram.

250 hours PIC (including some x-c and night PIC time).

In fact this is exacty the purpose of 14 CFR part 61.51(e). It's there to allow the logging of PIC time for advanced certificates, specifically the commercial and ATP. In fact, 61.51(e)(1) states right in the beginning "...A recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time only...". If you have an ATP, you are not allowed to log PIC time as "sole manipulator", unless of course you are designated PIC as defined under Part 1.1.

Majors will. And even regionals do...at least as far as to be sure you'll meet the ATP requirements of 61.159... i.e. the 250 hours of flight time in an airplane as PIC (including 100 hours x-c PIC time and 25 hours of PIC night, or any of the related credits to those times). We want to make sure you will meet the ATP requirements when you upgrade, with just SIC time going forward. We are not really interested in having you have to run out right before upgrade and buy 50 hours of C-152 time just to meet ATP mins. It has happened...

But you are right. It's about the only thing we check for. CFI's are usually no problem. Where we run into this problem is with the guy who got "lucky" and ended up with a right seat job somewhere as a wet-ticket Commercial pilot.

Another Scenario
 

As a new CFI I have one question about that if someone asks me to come along on a flight for an extra set of eyes and ears and they are a private pilot or commercial pilot can I log that as dual given and pic? Mainly because I think if something were to happen and I didnt try to correct the problem or let it happen being a CFI and holding a higher certificate then the PPL or the CPL the FAA would fault me somehow. So in that case I think I should be able to log PIC and Dual given even if it was just a short cross country and me just being an extra set of eyes.

If you are "just along for the ride" the FAA will hold you responsible as the most qualified pilot present even if you decide in advance that the other guy is the PIC. If you want to avoid that, have a beer before you go.

You should be able to log it as dual-given under the auspices of an area or route familiarization flight. However, you cannot do this on a repetetive basis with the same "student". The FAA wants dual-given to be for legitimate training purposes, not CFI time building.

If you want to do repetive flying with someone, do so as their hired commercial pilot...YOU are the PIC, and they get to manipulate the controls for fun.