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How do you REALLY build time?

Old 06-12-2009, 06:17 PM
  #11  
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Ive done yard work (cutting grass, washing; waxing cars) for flight time on a Bonanza...
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Old 06-12-2009, 06:24 PM
  #12  
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Originally Posted by The Juice View Post
Airports have flight clubs and small FBO's. Talk to the owners and cut a deal. Most owners I met loved having someone wash the bugs off their plane for an hour of flight time. I would go early on weekends and wash 3 or 4 planes , that was about 16 free hours a month.
How long does it take to wash one plane? An hour? That means he's paying you $100+/hr? That doesn't make sense. Not calling BS on your story, but I would guess the OP would have a hard time finding someone willing to just dish out flight time in exchange for something he could pay min wage for.
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Old 06-12-2009, 07:20 PM
  #13  
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I washed airplanes for flight time. I don't remember how much I got. It was too long ago.

I had my com/multi/instr with 250-300TT and got a job flying traffic watch in a C172. I flew 6 hours per day and flew about 1200 hours my first year. I also instructed in between rush hours. I built time real fast, but not multi. That was the hard one to get for me.

I had the MEI, but not enought hours multi to instruct (insurance). I rented twins when I could to build time slowly. I got a right seat corporate job (from working the ramp nights) that led to a left seat job and finally had hours to be a MEI. Then I went to the airlines with 4000TT and I can't remember how much multi: less than 1000.
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Old 06-12-2009, 07:27 PM
  #14  
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. . . trick question?



But seriously, I just set aside a portion of what I earn and take up friends and family to split the cost. I've also known a few people who have "given" me some time . . . figure I can network with these people later, too, so it's win-win.
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Old 06-12-2009, 08:10 PM
  #15  
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Originally Posted by 250 or point 65 View Post
How long does it take to wash one plane? An hour? That means he's paying you $100+/hr? That doesn't make sense. Not calling BS on your story, but I would guess the OP would have a hard time finding someone willing to just dish out flight time in exchange for something he could pay min wage for.
It makes sense. I was surprised, but getting a plane washed at an FBO can be over $100 and it takes about 30 minutes. Waxing it can make it go to $400. Also, it does not cost the owner $100 an hour to fly. Direct operating costs are usually around $50-$80 for most light aircraft. Only FBOs that want to make money charge $100+ an hour

Originally Posted by SkyHigh View Post
How do you build flight time? One miserable hour at a time.

Dig in, get depressed and set your expectations for a long year after year grind.

Skyhigh
I wish I could get into the grind! I would love to fly for peanuts (on a side note, there is a lot of talk about pilot unity and not accepting low wages for any type of flying once you have your commercial, but it would be pretty hard for me to demand more money from some banner towing company when they are already cutting me a break on their minimums), but insurance companies are killing me. I am able train students to fly a twin down to minimums in 10-15 hours, give some teen the right to fly alone after 20 hours, and ferry an airplane across the country, but the local news channel wont trust me to fly a 150 in an area I know like the back of my hand until I have 1200 hours.

Originally Posted by UnlimitedAkro View Post
Don't waste your money, this career is not what is used to be. Find another career.
Already started the process for ATC but that will take two years, and have a pilot slot in the USAF (but medical problems are making me think that option is about to end). It would be really depressing to end my flying career before it ever got off the ground. Some would say that would be the best, but I at least want to give it a few years.

Originally Posted by UAL T38 Phlyer View Post

He flew J-3s doing pipeline-patrol, I think 5 days a week, 8 hours a day, 4 and a half weeks per month, for multiple decades....maybe 30 years. I think that would be Part 91, and I think he retired when he was in his early 60s.
I would love to do that, but no company I have come across who has invested that much money in an aircraft is going to let someone with less than 1000 fly it no matter if they are 91, 135, or 121, and if they did, their insurance company would not let them. It is just kind of strange to me that it would be easier for me to go to a regional to build time so that I can then qualify to fly a 150 for the news.

Thanks for the help. I know there are bigger problems in the industry than me not being able to build time, but thanks a lot for the input.
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Old 06-12-2009, 08:14 PM
  #16  
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The best option would be if you could log SIC for 135, but I don’t think the few places I have connections with are willing to rewrite their ops-specs so I can get some time in a 208 are BE90.
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Old 06-12-2009, 08:16 PM
  #17  
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Originally Posted by Kasserine06 View Post
what I really want to talk about are these mythical time building jobs. First off, I want to say that I believe all 121 should have a minimum of 1000 hours and nothing less. The problem is that it is impossible to go from 250 to 1000. Many of you say, “Tow banners, patrol pipelines, traffic watch, and my favorite, sit right seat in a King Air.” I have looked for all of those, but there is a big problem. They either do not pay enough to live, or their minimums are higher than regionals. Towing banners pays about $8000 a year and will require me to move. I wanted to patrol pipelines, but their minimums where so high I they told me they would let me sit right seat in a 185 for free. Traffic watch does not exist anymore, and where it does, no news company is going to trust their expensive airplane with someone who has less than 1000 hours. I have found someone with a BE90 who would let me sit right seat, but I could not log the time because he does not have his MEI and I don’t think any future employer would like me to log dual given in turbine aircraft when I have zero turbine time. What I have noticed is that all 135 gigs have higher minimums than 121 because no 135 operator wants a VFR only pilot.
you are right, non-CFI time building jobs are much harder to find than CFI positions. But if you really look they ARE out there. I scoured every internet source I could, including climbto350.com and aviation forums like this one. I found numerous postings through climbto350 (example - pipeline in Texas, traffic watch in Illinois, scenic flight in N. Carolina, ferry in Alaska) that were willing to hire my low-time self. You really have to peel your eyes every day for those jobs, they come and go randomly/quickly and you never know when they're gonna pop up. I think I lived in front of the computer when I was looking. Networking in person might be a better idea these days too.
You say those jobs pay too little to live - if that's your problem, how do you expect to live on regional pay once you get there? If you're being picky about taking those time-building jobs because of low pay, you're seriously gonna have to figure something out... because it doesn't get much better at once you become a regional FO. I had my student loans on forebearance while I did aerial survey, and that's how I got through.
I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but it just seems to me like you're not trying hard enough or being pickier than you think you are. All the things you've mentioned, like that no 135 operator would want only a VFR pilot... is simply not true. It'd be HARD to find one, but not impossible. I know, because I've seen them myself when I was in your shoes. oh yeah and you mentioned that you were even willing to go overseas for a CFI position.. I was seriously considering that too, at one point (was extremely desperate). And so I know those exist too... it really is just a matter of how willing you are. No one will blame you if living in China isn't your thing, but then you can't complain that there are absolutely no opportunities.
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Old 06-12-2009, 08:38 PM
  #18  
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Originally Posted by kalyx522 View Post
You say those jobs pay too little to live - if that's your problem, how do you expect to live on regional pay once you get there? If you're being picky about taking those time-building jobs because of low pay, you're seriously gonna have to figure something out... because it doesn't get much better at once you become a regional FO. I had my student loans on forebearance while I did aerial survey, and that's how I got through.
I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but it just seems to me like you're not trying hard enough or being pickier than you think you are. All the things you've mentioned, like that no 135 operator would want only a VFR pilot... is simply not true. It'd be HARD to find one, but not impossible. I know, because I've seen them myself when I was in your shoes. oh yeah and you mentioned that you were even willing to go overseas for a CFI position.. I was seriously considering that too, at one point (was extremely desperate). And so I know those exist too... it really is just a matter of how willing you are. No one will blame you if living in China isn't your thing, but then you can't complain that there are absolutely no opportunities.
I am sorry, but $8000 a year does not go far in Miami especially when the realistic working hours where 30 to 40 hours a week (they wanted me to hang around the office until they found things for me to do). I would love to be making regional pay. The only thing I want is to make enough money to eat. I would jump at the opportunity to live in a tent surveying land in the Midwest, but there are not too many places to set one up in Miami so I would need an apartment.

I have been combing the web and local airports for over 8 months and I have not found a job. I applied to ferry/CFI in China, but they wanted me to speak Chinese. A jump school even turned me down because they require 15 hours in make and because my 182 time is in glass and theirs is not glass, they wanted me to pay 155 an hour until I have 15 hours steam gauge C182. I am working as a day laborer so I can save up money so that I can get that time and re apply next year. I also bought a ticket to Seattle to fly a 172 for 200 hours for $80 a day and a bed, but the guy changed his mind 6 hours before I got on the plane. Last week I even chased down a low flying J-3 to a private airport and begged the pilot to let me fly and he said he would have to check with his insurance company. I am not lazy, I do not expect a job to fall to my lap, and I am not holding out for a pipeline job that pays $18,000. I simply want a job where the salary=food and rent.

Also, please tell me about VFR 135 jobs. Flying bank checks or cargo would be a dream, but the places I have gone want to hire someone who can fly IFR. I have looked on all the jobs websites and I have found nothing. The airports I have gone to want 1200 hours. Where do you find the small 135 operators?
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Old 06-12-2009, 10:02 PM
  #19  
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Originally Posted by Kasserine06 View Post
I would love to be making regional pay. The only thing I want is to make enough money to eat. I would jump at the opportunity to live in a tent surveying land in the Midwest, but there are not too many places to set one up in Miami so I would need an apartment.
You do realize that you are about to receive a hundred messages directed at you along the lines that your attitude that you don't care what you make and would love to make regional wages is killing the profession of the airline pilot.....right?
APC - please tread lightly here and educate - don't castrate.

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Old 06-13-2009, 05:41 AM
  #20  
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Originally Posted by UAL T38 Phlyer View Post
In 2005 or 2006, I was in the FBO at Montgomery, AL. On display in a glass bookcase were the logbooks of a local pilot who had recently retired. There were a slew of them. I can't remember his name, but I remember what he did.

He flew J-3s doing pipeline-patrol, I think 5 days a week, 8 hours a day, 4 and a half weeks per month, for multiple decades....maybe 30 years. I think that would be Part 91, and I think he retired when he was in his early 60s.

He had over 60,000 hours. Granted, it wasn't fast, it wasn't very high, it wasn't glamorous, and he probably didn't make much...but it was an amazing total.

That's almost 7 years not touching the planet.

That's one way to build time.

Yea its actually well over 60k hours... I flew at my last company with a guy who knows/knew him and said he was the most humble guy you ever could imagine.... had to put a few down in fields over the years... and did alot of scud running... but he was the consummate pilot according to my friend. I thinks that display is a "montgomery first aviation" or something like that.
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