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ADM is not just a chapter...

Old 07-05-2009, 11:08 AM
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Default ADM is not just a chapter...

I found it not only invaluable but also very fascinating to read beyond what my Jeppesen had on ADM. I think that the importance of ADM goes well beyond a duration of a flight and during all the on the ground decision making that has to do with that flight. It is kind of weird that ADM is just a chapter at the end of a PPL handbook, but, I feel like the importance is not very emphasized. CFI's your thoughts? Also I've heard that most pilots have A-type personalities, but I don't have an A type personality, I am more like a C or D type. What other resources are there to direct me to find more info about ADM?
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Old 07-05-2009, 11:56 AM
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I wouldn't worry about types but research how decisions are made and how the process is prone to error. Decision making spans beyond aviation and so good decision making will be useful inside and outside the cockpit.

But for starters...there are lots of books out there on decision making,
March's book on decision making is a good read and a good start. Primer on Decision Making: How Decisions Happen

This is the Canadian aviation website for their decision making
TP 13095 - Risk Management & Decision-Making in Civil Aviation - Aviation Safety Publications & Videos - System Safety - Aviation Safety - Air Transportation - Transport Canada

Air War college site
Creativity, Thinking Skills, Critical Thinking, Problem solving, Decision making

This is the initial site for the Australian's take on ADM
Civil Aviation Safety Authority - Web and other resources

another Aussie site for decision making
http://www.dsto.defence.gov.au/publi...TO-GD-0279.pdf

google 'decision making' and it will lead you to lots of resources.
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Old 07-05-2009, 03:11 PM
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I hate to say it, because it may sound obvious, but the best way to learn decision making is to practice decision making. IMO, CFI's in general are way to quick to fix a decision made by at student and way to quick to answer questions in the cockpit. One of my classic examples was a student who was working on her commercial and would ask me everything down to "think I should get the ATIS now?" It got to the point where most everything she'd ask me where she was asking me to make a decision would be followed by "I don't know, you're the commercial pilot".

Making bad decisions is a valuable learning tool. We as CFI's should be comfortable with our own personal limits - how far am I going to let this decision play out before I pull the plug on this error chain?

A student's understanding through consequences is much more valuable then a CFI explaining what the consequences will be. Also, once put in a situation due to their decision (good or bad), they need to see that decision out and make follow up decisions. This may be extremely uncomfortable, especially for students who are regularly fed decisions from their CFI. However, students who become comfortable making decisions turn into the best pilots.

Lastly, I believe that this is the real reason why CFIing is so important. It forces the CFI to make decisions out from under the umbrella of their CFI's ticket. It also forces the CFI to analyze the decisions made by students as good, bad or indifferent as they pertain to an error chain or successful decision making process. In many ways, freight dogs do the same thing. They make decisions that they and only they have to live or die with.

This is the biggest problem with guys hired at airlines with wet commercials. Its not really that those who paid their dues look down on these guys because they got to the bigs easy, its because when the 200 hr guy becomes captain, they will have never made a decision outside the umbrella of their CFI ticket, or Capt's ATP (besides any trouble they got into in their limited amount of solo time).

Sorry, guess that last part was a little off topic.
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Old 07-05-2009, 03:18 PM
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Oh, sorry, one more thing. As far as practicing decision making, as stupid as it sounds, the FAA's DECIDE model is really really good. Although we may not be breaking up each decision we make in life by each letter in the acronym, every good decision has all the elements of the DECIDE model.

Particularly when I make a decision, especially when in the cockpit or buying electronics, my goal is to get as much PERTINENT information as possible. I don't know how many times I've seen captains make snap decisions when one wasn't necessary when they could have taken 30 seconds to gather some additional information.

Here's an example. We had our anti-ice system fail in flight while in icing. The obvious decision is to get out of icing conditions, but the captain was trying to make an additional decision for which he needed to know if there was ice on the wings. He started freaking out because he couldn't see the wings from the cockpit. I suggested that we ask the Jumpseating pilot in 12A if he saw any ice. Within 30 seconds we coordinated with the FA to calmly ask the pilot and she returned back with the necessary information.

Gather information, use your resources, and take a deep breath.
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Old 07-05-2009, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by PearlPilot View Post
I found it not only invaluable but also very fascinating to read beyond what my Jeppesen had on ADM. I think that the importance of ADM goes well beyond a duration of a flight and during all the on the ground decision making that has to do with that flight. It is kind of weird that ADM is just a chapter at the end of a PPL handbook, but, I feel like the importance is not very emphasized. CFI's your thoughts? Also I've heard that most pilots have A-type personalities, but I don't have an A type personality, I am more like a C or D type. What other resources are there to direct me to find more info about ADM?
Quantum Pro makes a great CRM course that gives good information on ADM, and IMO more importantly flight discipline. It is flight discipline that has you here asking questions about ADM right?

I agree with you that ADM is a huge part of the picture and certainly needs more emphasis. I think flight discipline plays a larger role however and I find even less time spent on this than ADM. Here is a good link to get started on flight discipline: www.casa.gov.au/fsa/1999/jul/FSAfinal.pdf if you would like.

I will say this, Jepesen may not have a large chapter devoted to ADM, but the information given should more than suffice for a typical private pilot. I think it would make more sense to spend ample time on the topics in the book, beating them into the student, then getting overly complex with ADM theory. If you beat in the topics in Jepesen chapter 10 I think it is at least it increases the chances of them retaining that information and being able to use it.



III Corps thanks for the links, good stuff.
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Old 07-05-2009, 03:33 PM
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shdw,

I actually trained with an Aussie for my ATP and noticed that his flight discipline was impeccable. So much so that he felt very uncomfortable with anything out of the ordinary. Although he was just a very small example of Aussie pilots, it was still obvious that the flight culture was very different than it is in the US. We actually talked about it for a while and it seemed to be kind of like the difference in philosophy between Airbus and Boeing. It seemed (correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems consistent with the emphasis that you put on FD) that the Aussie thinking was, if we plan for everything and do everything by the book, the decisions will already be made for us. This seems more consistent with FD, enhanced procedures, memory items, checklists, etc.

It also seems that US mentality of safety starts with planning, but really finds its bread and butter in decision making, CRM, etc. I would guess that this is because most all accidents are caused by an error chain put in place by pilots. The philosophy here seems to be, instead of taking the decision out of the pilots hands, lets make the pilot better at making the decisions (through CRM, ADM, LOFT, and other training events). Who knows if the attitude that not everything can be planned for or general American cowboy attitude comes into this at all.

What do you think?
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Old 07-05-2009, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by 250 or point 65 View Post

I actually trained with an Aussie for my ATP and noticed that his flight discipline was impeccable. So much so that he felt very uncomfortable with anything out of the ordinary. Although he was just a very small example of Aussie pilots, it was still obvious that the flight culture was very different than it is in the US.
US flight discipline consists of "it is an airplane just fly the damn thing" or "flying is easy just do..." it is arrogant, and I would bet a major factor in our 75 percent human error in accidents. If you treat flight with that attitude your a danger to yourself and anyone else in an airplane with you or those that you teach. Unfortunately it is this attitude that is so often heard in the flight instructor market.

It most certainly is true that you can't plan for everything. The problem is, this excuse used to rationalize (defense mechanisms anyone) not adequately planning for a flight. It is similar to "well the speed limit is 55 so I can do 60 without getting pulled over."

I am fairly certain with the right amount of personal discipline and proper application that you can plan for almost any scenario you can ever be in as a pilot. Tell the guys over at NASA that you can't plan for everything, I would bet they have a different philosophy than many of us. Does anyone here happen to know their philosophy for flight planning/preparation?

We are lazy, period. "You can't plan for everything" is not an excuse to plan for nothing. How many of us take 15 minutes to fill out a nav log before going on a cross country? Who here does a W+B and landing distances for every flight? Brief a takeoff in case of an engine out before each takeoff? Brief landing areas anytime you are flying at a low altitude in the event of an engine failure? How bout brief each new phase of flight? When is the last time you did a climb checklist? Took off when you were not at 100 percent mental/physical capacity and you knew it? Need I go on?


Edit: Back on topic we were taught 4 Bs, briefing, back doors, back ups, and bottom lines. If you create these for each situation and then brief that situation (the act of forcing yourself to do this would be exhibiting good flight discipline) it can help you better prepare yourself. Back ups just to clarify, include things like ATC and bringing along a flight instructor, they are not just GPS/electronics.
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Old 07-05-2009, 05:46 PM
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Just to clarify. I was not at all insinuating that the Aussie philosophy was wrong or that "You can't plan for everything" is an adequate excuse for lack of preparedness.

Like the OP said, ADM starts well before the flight is conducted. I did not mean that it should be used in lieu of preparation or discipline.

However, I think the promotion of ADM in the US is also due to the fact that we have a more vibrant GA community than most countries. Weekend warriors, no matter how prepared, do not have all the tools that an Airline Pilot would in terms of knowledge, procedures, standardization, equipment etc.

Also, PLANNING involves decision making. I don't know that any airline has a standardized procedure for making a go/no-go decision, planning a route, or the other ton of decisions a pilot must make. In the air, there's little guidance on decisions like; can I accept that ATC instruction? Should I go to the bathroom now, or wait until on the ground? etc. Decisions are a major component of the planning process, no matter how in advance the planning is made. We should always strive for standardization, but we will never be 100% standardized.

Lastly, although we should all strive to become the most knowledgeable, disciplined and prepared pilots we can possibly be, no, we cannot plan for everything. Ask NASA about Apollo 13.
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Old 07-05-2009, 07:11 PM
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I didn't think you did, you just asked my opinion and I gave it to you. No worries, nothing was meant personally towards you, just how I see things in the my limited flight experiences as a low time CFI.

I simply mean good flight discipline will cause you to strive for the best. This would mean going out and getting ADM training, improving your skills by training a couple hours a year to stay current, setting up and sticking to personal limitations, and so on. All of these things are not thought about, how many people have had a student do a hazardous attitude self assessment or made a student write out and discussed with the student their personal limitations and how to judge them? Heck how many pilots have ever done this for themselves much less a student, I would guess not many.

On topic, like I said I agree ADM is right on up there, I just think ADM is skipping the first step. IMO good personal discipline is the best way to be safe because, as described in the previous paragraph, it is all inclusive.
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Old 07-05-2009, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by shdw View Post
On topic, like I said I agree ADM is right on up there, I just think ADM is skipping the first step. IMO good personal discipline is the best way to be safe because, as described in the previous paragraph, it is all inclusive.
Well put, bud.
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