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Vyse?
No time in any light twins and now have the chance to fly in a Baron.
What is the deal with blueline? What is the approach speed for a short field landing? Have always used 1.3 VSO for normal, 1.2 VSO for Assaults in the C130. I figured you guys will have the gouge. |
The 5 degrees of bank chosen for the Vmc demonstration is entirely arbitrary, and has nothing to do with achieving maximum performance at the higher single engine best rate of climb speed, known as Vyse, which is painted on the ASI as a blue line. Google Search: twin engine aircraft blue line For "What is the approach speed for a short field landing? Have always used 1.3 VSO for normal, 1.2 VSO for Assaults in the C130." A quick check of the POH when you jump in, beginning of sections 2, 3, 4 should have most of your V-speeds. For Vso likely page 4-4 to 4-8, enjoy :) |
Originally Posted by Barnstormer
(Post 656369)
No time in any light twins and now have the chance to fly in a Baron.
What is the deal with blueline? What is the approach speed for a short field landing? Have always used 1.3 VSO for normal, 1.2 VSO for Assaults in the C130. I figured you guys will have the gouge. Its really the speed you pitch for if you loose your engine to achive best performance (climb) or if you are above your S.E service ceiling it will give you the lowest sink rate. Its also the target speed for short final with one engine inop. In twins you should not fly slower than blue line if you engine's gone. Never flown a baron so i dont have the specific speeds. check the poh, if you dont have one than i would recommend about 5 knots below blue line. |
Originally Posted by propjunkie
(Post 656458)
Blue line (VYSE) is the "best rate of climb with critical engine inop"
Its really the speed you pitch for if you loose your engine to achive best performance (climb) or if you are above your S.E service ceiling it will give you the lowest sink rate. Its also the target speed for short final with one engine inop. In twins you should not fly slower than blue line if you engine's gone. Never flown a baron so i dont have the specific speeds. check the poh, if you dont have one than i would recommend about 5 knots below blue line. Did you mean 5 kts ABOVE blue line? USMCFLYR |
Flying below Vyse isn't going to kill you if an engine is inop, but it's recommended because you'll get the best rate of climb(or slowest descent at altitude) in that event. But even then, short final, when you're commiting to land, so slipping below Vyse in my opinion is how it's supposed to be in light to medium twin aircraft. I include King-Airs in this category, and the POH even has the threshold numbers to back that up.
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don't have numbers in front of me but is Vyse the same as best glide.
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Originally Posted by mmaviator
(Post 656601)
don't have numbers in front of me but is Vyse the same as best glide.
Best glide is the aircrafts minimum drag speed, also found where the tangent line meets the power required curve. Source 1: http://www.mathworks.ch/products/dem..._thumbnail.png You can see the minimum drag, pointed out here as Vbg or http://www.mountainflying.com/Pages/...drag_curve.jpg pointed out as min drag or L/D max which all are the same thing, best glide. Source 2: http://www.auf.asn.au/groundschool/powercurve3.gif Pink line shows the tangent line. Vyse is the speed where there is the greatest gap between power available and power required on in an OEI PaPr curve. Basically, the speed where you have the most excess power when one engine is INOP. I looked for a Pa Pr curve OEI to show you, but was unable to locate one, sorry. |
Thanks for the good info.
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Originally Posted by mmaviator
(Post 656601)
don't have numbers in front of me but is Vyse the same as best glide.
Joe |
Originally Posted by shdw
(Post 656656)
There is likely no published best glide speed, at least there generally isn't for light twin aircraft. Vyse = Best Rate of Climb Single Engine. It would have the same relationship as best glide in that it will get you the furthest distance on one engine, but it is not aerodynamically related to best glide.
Best glide is the aircrafts minimum drag speed, also found where the tangent line meets the power required curve. Source 1: http://www.mathworks.ch/products/dem..._thumbnail.png You can see the minimum drag, pointed out here as Vbg or http://www.mountainflying.com/Pages/...drag_curve.jpg pointed out as min drag or L/D max which all are the same thing, best glide. Source 2: http://www.auf.asn.au/groundschool/powercurve3.gif Pink line shows the tangent line. Vyse is the speed where there is the greatest gap between power available and power required on in an OEI PaPr curve. Basically, the speed where you have the most excess power when one engine is INOP. I looked for a Pa Pr curve OEI to show you, but was unable to locate one, sorry. thanks............ |
Originally Posted by shdw
(Post 656656)
There is likely no published best glide speed, at least there generally isn't for light twin aircraft. Vyse = Best Rate of Climb Single Engine. It would have the same relationship as best glide in that it will get you the furthest distance on one engine, but it is not aerodynamically related to best glide.
Best glide is the aircrafts minimum drag speed, also found where the tangent line meets the power required curve. Source 1: http://www.mathworks.ch/products/dem..._thumbnail.png You can see the minimum drag, pointed out here as Vbg or http://www.mountainflying.com/Pages/...drag_curve.jpg pointed out as min drag or L/D max which all are the same thing, best glide. Source 2: http://www.auf.asn.au/groundschool/powercurve3.gif Pink line shows the tangent line. Vyse is the speed where there is the greatest gap between power available and power required on in an OEI PaPr curve. Basically, the speed where you have the most excess power when one engine is INOP. I looked for a Pa Pr curve OEI to show you, but was unable to locate one, sorry. So did you get an MEI recently? |
Originally Posted by mshunter
(Post 657027)
So did you get an MEI recently?
Chasing someone around and trying to discredit them on various forums because you have a grudge is childish. It is a shame that you would rather spend your time mocking/discrediting me than digging your nose into the books and learning some basic dynamics, like what the lift formula is and how it works. PS, Mshunger, What ever you do, don't try and claim someone else (Rick Stowell) disagrees with what is said, especially when his book agrees with the topic at hand. Things like that really make you look... ;) |
Check the POH on your specific Baron, but according to BEECH BARON BE55B CHECKLIST - Download Technical, Vyse on the Baron is 101 kts and short field approach speed is 90 knots.
I teach in a Seneca I; Vyse is 105 MPH and short field approach speed on final is 90 MPH with full flaps, max braking and flaps up on touchdown. I instructed in Aztecs a while ago but in all light twins that I've flown, the short field approach speed has been about 10 knots (or 10-15 MPH) slower than Vyse. Brush up on Chapter 12 on the Airplane Flying Handbook: Transition to Multi-engine Airplanes - http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/a...83-3a-5of7.pdf (Caution: huge file) |
Originally Posted by shdw
(Post 657186)
Didn't realize an MEI was necessary to understand the aerodynamics behind best glide (minimum drag) or best rate of climb (greatest excess power available). If there is something wrong with what I said, feel free to point it out, I am here to learn and teach like anyone else. If there is nothing wrong with the post or if you don't know, then keep your mouth shut or be polite and say thank you.
Chasing someone around and trying to discredit them on various forums because you have a grudge is childish. It is a shame that you would rather spend your time mocking/discrediting me than digging your nose into the books and learning some basic dynamics, like what the lift formula is and how it works. PS, Mshunger, What ever you do, don't try and claim someone else (Rick Stowell) disagrees with what is said, especially when his book agrees with the topic at hand. Things like that really make you look... ;) woah, woah, woah....... I was simply asking if you had gotten your MEI recently. No need to get all nasty. And the Stowell thing on your hand, is kinda....;) I gave you the link, and I work with the guy. But no need to bring up other threads. It ws an innocent question. Last I remember, you were working at some college IIRC, and I thought most places like that help you to get all your instructor certs. It was an honest, legit question. Edit: There is nothing wrong with what you said either. You should know my style by now, I would have pointed it out. |
Originally Posted by mshunter
(Post 657345)
woah, woah, woah....... I was simply asking if you had gotten your MEI recently. No need to get all nasty. And the Stowell thing on your hand, is kinda....;) I gave you the link, and I work with the guy. But no need to bring up other threads. It ws an innocent question. Last I remember, you were working at some college IIRC, and I thought most places like that help you to get all your instructor certs. It was an honest, legit question.
Edit: There is nothing wrong with what you said either. You should know my style by now, I would have pointed it out. |
There are a couple of errors on some of the previous posts. L/D max is not the same as minimum drag. Minimum drag (max endurance, holding speed, (or, in glider terms, min sink)) is at the low point on the total drag curve. L/D max (best glide distance) is at the tangent of the line from the origin touching the total drag curve.
Some aircraft with really powerful wing mounted engines and relatively small tails (think P-38) have a very high Vmc, and Vyse has to be raised above what the calculation would normally show to account for that. Joe |
Originally Posted by shdw
(Post 657186)
Chasing someone around and trying to discredit them on various forums because you have a grudge is childish. |
Originally Posted by joepilot
(Post 657490)
There are a couple of errors on some of the previous posts. L/D max is not the same as minimum drag. Minimum drag (max endurance, holding speed, (or, in glider terms, min sink)) is at the low point on the total drag curve. L/D max (best glide distance) is at the tangent of the line from the origin touching the total drag curve.
Some aircraft with really powerful wing mounted engines and relatively small tails (think P-38) have a very high Vmc, and Vyse has to be raised above what the calculation would normally show to account for that. Joe |
Originally Posted by joepilot
(Post 657490)
There are a couple of errors on some of the previous posts. L/D max is not the same as minimum drag. Minimum drag (max endurance, holding speed, (or, in glider terms, min sink)) is at the low point on the total drag curve. L/D max (best glide distance) is at the tangent of the line from the origin touching the total drag curve.
*Best Glide/Minimum Drag/L/D Max/Maximum Range* Looking back at Eq. (9.4), we can see that, because drag D = -W sin y, minimum drag Dmin occurs at precisely the condition for best glide. *Minimum Power Required/Minimum Sink/Maximum Endurance As we will see shortly, maximum endurance (time aloft) occurs when the minimum power is used to maintain steady level flight. Maximum range (distance traveled) is obtained when the aircraft is flown at the most aerodynamically efficient condition (maximum Cl/Cd). Source: 13.2 Power Required It is usually assumed that the trim lift coefficient CLmp gives the minimum sink-speed for any airplane in power-off glide. Source: http://pdf.aiaa.org/jaPreview/JA/1994/PVJAPRE46639.pdf *Conclusion* Best glide speed = minimum drag, maximum L/D, maximum range, and is the tangent line on the power required curve. Minimum sink speed = minimum power required on the power required curve and maximum endurance.
Originally Posted by joepilot
(Post 657490)
Some aircraft with really powerful wing mounted engines and relatively small tails (think P-38) have a very high Vmc, and Vyse has to be raised above what the calculation would normally show to account for that.
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