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Considering becoming professional pilot
Hello all, I am 20 years old and currently persuing a history degree. I am having doubts as to what ill be able to do with this degree that I will enjoy and have been considering other career options and I have always had a desire to become a pilot.
Ive been looking at a flight school near my home, specifically at the Professional Pilot Course they offer (HERE) and What kind of a job could I begin at with this? Would there be a problem with me not having an aerospace degree? I really would just like to hear some pilots chime in on what they think of this program and what it would bring me. Thank you for your time Bryce |
You have a lot of research to do. Your questions have been addressed many times here on APC, find those threads for more details.
In summary... You do not need an aviation degree, any accredited 4-year degree is fine. However: Ideally you want to major in something very practical (accounting, computer science, engineering, etc) so that when you need a non-aviation job due to medical, furlough, or airline bankruptcy you have some useful training. Some folks will say "major in something that interests you, it's all about self-fulfillment". But in the case of a pilot, aviation is your fulfillment/indulgence...you need a practical major that will be there for you when reality hits you between the eyes. The school's link was blocked by the forum filters...what is the name and location of the school? |
In short, becoming a pilot will bring you:
1) outrageous debt 2) low pay for years 3) dreadful family life 4) and the wish to get out of this "career" asap Being a pilot is barely even a career these days, its more like a stepping stone to the unemployment line, or becoming a manager at starbucks. If I were you I would seriously consider not becoming a pilot, maybe get your private license and fly for fun, but look around these threads to see the real face of this "glamorous" lifestyle. |
Originally Posted by boeingt7
(Post 684326)
In short, becoming a pilot will bring you:
1) outrageous debt 2) low pay for years 3) dreadful family life 4) and the wish to get out of this "career" asap Being a pilot is barely even a career these days, its more like a stepping stone to the unemployment line, or becoming a manager at starbucks. If I were you I would seriously consider not becoming a pilot, maybe get your private license and fly for fun, but look around these threads to see the real face of this "glamorous" lifestyle. |
I'm beginning to wonder if there are any pilots on these boards that actually enjoy their career.
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Originally Posted by Mustang87
(Post 684617)
I'm beginning to wonder if there are any pilots on these boards that actually enjoy their career.
The concept of career for most would include some degree of stability, future opportunity for advancement, and compensation commensurate with the demands of the job and the price of entry. Even a small but real threat to your company's financial health can keep you awake at night...if you have to switch companies you lose all seniority, longevity, pay, vacation, and QOL. Most SWA/UPS/FDX pilots probably enjoy their careers. |
Originally Posted by Mustang87
(Post 684617)
I'm beginning to wonder if there are any pilots on these boards that actually enjoy their career.
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Originally Posted by Mustang87
(Post 684617)
I'm beginning to wonder if there are any pilots on these boards that actually enjoy their career.
Lots of pilot ***** and complain, but a lot of times there complaints are their own doing... Things such as high debt, commuting (though unavoidable in some cases), etc. Also, a lot of airline pilots don't seem to grasp the reality of what it's like outside of aviation. They believe everybody works 9-5 with a two hour lunch, 4-5 days/wk, 6 weeks vacation, making $150k/yr, perfect stability, and lots of respect. That simply isn't true. If one wants to get into this career, they need to be smart about it from the start. Some tips: 1)Do not go into debt to be a pilot. This will require taking your time and sacrificing a lot as you do your training, but is very worth it. Your first several pilot jobs will likely pay $30k or less, so you cannot afford to be paying loans. A lot of the guys you hear *****ing and complaining screwed up and have a huge debt load... I'm sure I'd be miserable in that situation too. 2)Get a degree in something useful. Like rikair7777 said, your indulgence is pilot training. When (not if) aviation falls on hard times during your career, you NEED to have a degree in something useful that is outside of aviation. The majors rikair listed are good ones, I'd also include nursing or some other health care degree in that list. 3)Be very flexible with your goals as a pilot. Saying you only want to be an "airline pilot" can set you up for failure and disappointment. You never know where this career can take you, and you have to be willing to walk through whatever doors open for you as you gain experience. Airline, freight, charter, corporate, air ambulance, etc... You never know what will be best for you, so keep an open mind. 4)Be willing to pay your dues. Some guys have a HUGE chip on their shoulder since they have to fly as a first officer for a few years, or have to flight instruct for a year or two. That's just how it goes in aviation, so be prepared. 5)Be prepared to be somewhat selfish. You have to be flexible enough to move around the country and maybe even the world as you start out. So you may very well lose your girlfriend, have to move away from your friends and family, etc. You have to do what's best for your career, at least the first few years. Good luck to you, whatever you decide. |
Originally Posted by Mustang87
(Post 684617)
I'm beginning to wonder if there are any pilots on these boards that actually enjoy their career.
But I do feel lonely out here on APC sometimes. |
Originally Posted by wrxpilot
(Post 684655)
2)Get a degree in something useful. Like rikair7777 said, your indulgence is pilot training. When (not if) aviation falls on hard times during your career, you NEED to have a degree in something useful that is outside of aviation. The majors rikair listed are good ones, I'd also include nursing or some other health care degree in that list. Or just get married to someone who is a nurse practitioner :D |
Originally Posted by WEACLRS
(Post 684656)
Mustang, I love my job. Compared to my 15 year career in Fortune 500 middle/senior management and consulting positions it's the best job I've ever had. The career "rules" in aviation are different, but you are no more at risk in a professional pilot position than you are in corporate America.
In the corporate world there are some disadvantages like long hours and your boss might be a tool. But there are some huge problems unique to airlines and aviation... In the corporate world, you can always quit if you don't like your work situation, boss, pay, or geographic location. Your experience is portable, and you will most likely make as much or usually more with a new employer. In most aviation jobs you start over at the bottom. Normal employees cannot mistreat you too badly...otherwise they won't have any employees left. In the airlines it is almost unheard of (although becoming slightly more common) for pilots to just up and quit due to dis-satisfaction...even at the worst bottom feeders. Managers know this, and play it to their advantage. In the immortal words of Jonathon Ornstien "As long as I have pilot resumes on my desk, I am paying my pilots too much". In business, once you get some experience QOL issues like work schedules and vacation are negotiable. Never in the airlines, new-hires take what they are given, which is almost nothing. Contract negotiations are done by senior union members, and anything they give junior folks means less for themselves. In the corporate world you have hundreds or thousands of potential employers to chose from. In the airlines, when and if it comes time to change employers, you may only have 2-3 or fewer employers who you can realistically apply to (based on minimums, geography, who you know, who is hiring). If you blow the interview process (major airlines hire anywhere from 5-50% of those interviewed) you may be completely out of options. If an airline pilot finds himself unemployed due to furlough, medical, or bankruptcy he may be truly "out of altitude, airspeed, and ideas". He might simply have nowhere to go. Non-airline flying has it's own set of problems, but there are a few really good gigs out there (unfortunately, competition is naturally quite fierce). |
Originally Posted by ufgatorpilot
(Post 684634)
Like those people that go to restaurants and always complain to the waiter that something is wrong with their food.
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Originally Posted by ryan1234
(Post 684726)
Most of those people have migrated from the North and made a colony called "Florida":D
I've always wanted to visit that goofy little country and her people |
Originally Posted by rickair7777
(Post 684692)
Been there, done that too but I have to disagree.
In the corporate world there are some disadvantages like long hours and your boss might be a tool. I traveled an average of 8 nights a month away from home. I never saw a three-day weekend like Labor day completely off. I never had two weeks off in a row - at most one week every other year and I spent at least some of it on the phone or internet on company business. My request for a week of vacation was almost always met with "do you have to go now?" or "you can take the week of Christmas off..." But there are some huge problems unique to airlines and aviation... In the corporate world, you can always quit if you don't like your work situation, boss, pay, or geographic location. Your experience is portable, and you will most likely make as much or usually more with a new employer. In most aviation jobs you start over at the bottom. Normal employe[r]s cannot mistreat you too badly...otherwise they won't have any employees left. In the airlines it is almost unheard of (although becoming slightly more common) for pilots to just up and quit due to dis-satisfaction...even at the worst bottom feeders. Managers know this, and play it to their advantage. In the immortal words of Jonathon Ornstien "As long as I have pilot resumes on my desk, I am paying my pilots too much". In business, once you get some experience QOL issues like work schedules and vacation are negotiable. Never in the airlines, new-hires take what they are given, which is almost nothing. Contract negotiations are done by senior union members, and anything they give junior folks means less for themselves. In the corporate world you have hundreds or thousands of potential employers to chose from. In the airlines, when and if it comes time to change employers, you may only have 2-3 or fewer employers who you can realistically apply to (based on minimums, geography, who you know, who is hiring). If you blow the interview process (major airlines hire anywhere from 5-50% of those interviewed) you may be completely out of options. If an airline pilot finds himself unemployed due to furlough, medical, or bankruptcy he may be truly "out of altitude, airspeed, and ideas". He might simply have nowhere to go. Fair Disclosure: I know my experience so far in airlines has been different than some. I caught the last business cycle well. Three years at a regional and now three years at a major. Time will tell if I made the right decisions. So I haven't experienced some of the traditional airline frustrations. I say this to show it can be done, and at my airline in the last hiring wave there were still 1000 guys that were hired before me. So they did it too. The best time to be training for an airline career? Right now, when no-one is hiring. Get the the training done, get first inline for when the hiring begins again. Get hired and buried into seniority list by being among the first in a new round. If you wait for the hiring to begin again to start training and building time, you've waited to long. There's an old saying: "Good Luck is nothing more than opportunity meeting preparation." The big crap shoot? If you pick the wrong airline, you may have to start over some day. What looks good today, may be the wrong place in 10 years. As I said, the career "rules" are different. For the first time in my working career, I have people below me that will lose their job before me, by contract. No more showing up at work one day and finding out I don't have a job anymore. By law and contract I have to receive notice. I have the best retirement plan, the best medical plan, the most amount of time off, vacation I can actually take and use, salary that increases annually for the next eight years, and a predictable income. To me that sounds pretty good. I was very prepared to have overcome worse than I did to get it...because of what I experienced in a successful corporate career. |
Originally Posted by WEACLRS
(Post 685058)
True. As I wrote in another post, in the corporate world... "My average work week was 55 to 60 hours, 10 to 11 hour days. Up at 5:30am and in the car at 6:30 to commute 45 minutes to work so as to be in the office by 7:15 to answer (mostly ignore) 75 to 150 emails and vmails a day. By 8:30a my door was revolving with people and meetings (I had a staff of 75 in the last position) until 6:00p or so. I would work at my desk until 7:30 or 8:00p trying to clear up the critical stuff, drive 35 minutes home, and get in around 9:00. Have dinner with the wife, review a little material for tomorrow, and hit the sack at 11:00p to do it all over again. My fellow directors and I would go into the office on Saturday's from 9 - 3 to clean up as much of the week's desk work as possible. I would take Saturday evening and Sunday morning off. Sunday evening I would work at the home office preparing for Monday.
I traveled an average of 8 nights a month away from home. I never saw a three-day weekend like Labor day completely off. I never had two weeks off in a row - at most one week every other year and I spent at least some of it on the phone or internet on company business. My request for a week of vacation was almost always met with "do you have to go now?" or "you can take the week of Christmas off..." Maybe. It depends on the field, previous position, your visibility and networking skills, reasons for leaving, how desperate you are, among other things. However... ...You don't necessarily have to start over at the bottom. Really??! I lived and worked in one of hottest job markets in the US. I saw other employees and personally experienced being badgered, threatened, harassed, and mistreated, people fired and let go for poor and questionable reasons. Very rarely did anybody just quit unless it was for another position with different company. It's amazing what people will put up with. I have at least a dozen examples. I personally had my position eliminated three times in fifteen years (ie, not furloughed with recall rights, but just...eliminated.) No seniority, no thought of length of service...absolutely no warning. "After 15 years I walked into my office to see the head of HR and my boss standing there. My position was eliminated in a company reorganization without regard to seniority or tenure or notice ...I was asked to be out the door in less than 30 minutes." I have not seen anything in the airlines regarding the day-to-day management of airline pilots and crew that is really any different than what I saw in corporate management. Same ****, different business. Yep. By the same token I remember a VP that used to love to respond when asked about annual bonuses when we had a record year with "Bonuses? You get to keep your job!" He meant it. I never saw an annual raise more than 1.25% or a bonus of more than $1000. The only way to make more money was to get promoted. Period. I had stock options twice (once it was a lot of stock options), both times they expired worthless (80% of all stock options issued to executives in the US do expire worthless). :D Nope. I was never able to negotiate vacation. Negotiate a work schedule? Sure. Try it. Just see what happens to your career if you are not at work when your boss is looking for you because you are on a "flex" schedule, even one they may have approved. We used to have a saying: "Out-of-sight, out-of-mind, out-of-a-job." If you expect to get ahead, work more hours than your boss, be there before they arrive, and leave after they do. True. However, in corporate America you might interview 15, 20, or more for each single position you fill. When airlines are hiring in large amounts, the hiring percentage of the number being interviewed is much much higher. With poor planning and inattention, true. However, with good networking, diligence, some hard work, and attention to the industry, he can keep his options open and available, perhaps within the industry, perhaps outside of it. He may have periods of displacement, but this is no different than in corporate America. I see a lot of pilots get "comfortable". This is dangerous in any field. Fair Disclosure: I know my experience so far in airlines has been different than some. I caught the last business cycle well. Three years at a regional and now three years at a major. Time will tell if I made the right decisions. So I haven't experienced some of the traditional airline frustrations. I say this to show it can be done, and at my airline in the last hiring wave there were still 1000 guys that were hired before me. So they did it too. The best time to be training for an airline career? Right now, when no-one is hiring. Get the the training done, get first inline for when the hiring begins again. Get hired and buried into seniority list by being among the first in a new round. If you wait for the hiring to begin again to start training and building time, you've waited to long. There's an old saying: "Good Luck is nothing more than opportunity meeting preparation." The big crap shoot? If you pick the wrong airline, you may have to start over some day. What looks good today, may be the wrong place in 10 years. As I said, the career "rules" are different. For the first time in my working career, I have people below me that will lose their job before me, by contract. No more showing up at work one day and finding out I don't have a job anymore. By law and contract I have to receive notice. I have the best retirement plan, the best medical plan, the most amount of time off, vacation I can actually take and use, salary that increases annually for the next eight years, and a predictable income. To me that sounds pretty good. I was very prepared to have overcome worse than I did to get it...because of what I experienced in a successful corporate career. The QOL issue which gave me the most heartburn was the need to be available even when I was not at work. This included vacation, and was a real problem on military leave. Two key benefits of the airline biz for me were compatibility with military service and the ability to leave work at work. Sounds like you work for SWA or someone in that league...good for you. But someone starting out has a long row to hoe, and there are no guarantees. Over half of the folks I trained either didn't make it to the regionals, or are looking to get out of the regionals. Most will not make it where you are, and they need to understand and accept their career prospects. Most folks starting out will not have it as good as you do, my purpose here is to make sure everyone understands what they are getting into. We don't need another wave of super-low-timers with SJS coming in and undercutting wages only to get disillusioned after a few years and quit rather than stand up for the profession. It's not good for us, and it is certainly not good for those who spend the time, effort, and money only to quit. I would rather see only the most committed pilots, who will take the long-term view. |
Originally Posted by rickair7777
(Post 685552)
I think my experience was better than yours. I did not hate it, in fact I rather enjoyed it ...
...my purpose here is to make sure everyone understands what they are getting into. We don't need another wave of super-low-timers with SJS coming in and undercutting wages only to get disillusioned after a few years and quit rather than stand up for the profession. It's not good for us, and it is certainly not good for those who spend the time, effort, and money only to quit...I would rather see only the most committed pilots, who will take the long-term view. |
Save a life
Originally Posted by AirWillie
(Post 684557)
No kidding. I just went to the local airport yesterday for some sorely missed VFR flying. I shot the breeze with a couple of CFIs and never told them that I was an airline pilot(yes I know.. I'm not lying) They said they had like 10 CFIs on staff not flying, we talked some about the airlines and the industry. Seemed like they were having a tough time. The whole time in my head I was screaming WHY?!! GET OUT NOW!! Oh well can't take that away from them...
Skyhigh |
Originally Posted by SkyHigh
(Post 685732)
Why not tell them the truth next time? You might just save a life.
Skyhigh |
Originally Posted by SkyHigh
(Post 685732)
Why not tell them the truth next time? You might just save a life.
Skyhigh
Originally Posted by ufgatorpilot
(Post 685764)
Don't worry Sky, you are doing a great job of getting the message out yourself. :D
USMCFLYR |
WRX i sent you a PM. Just a heads up.
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I agree with what an earlier poster said about not trusting this forum to be representative of most airline pilots. I, for one, enjoy my career, yes career. Is everything perfect and rosy all of the time, no, it's not, and it's not that way at any company in the world. Are there some companies where things are absolutely terrbile? Yes, there are. Is there any way to guarantee that you won't wind up working for one of those companies if you pursue a pilot career. Unfortunately not, but that's the case with any career field. What you really need to decide is if you want to get into flying for the love of flying, travel and being on the road, or because it seems like a neat job with a big paycheck. If it's the latter, you're likely to be disappointed and wind up like a lot of the people complaining on here, in which case you're better off finding something else. If it's the former, and you're willing to make the best of whatever situation you encounter along the way, this can be a fun, enjoyable career. Good luck with whatever you decide.
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Originally Posted by KDENPilot
(Post 687147)
I agree with what an earlier poster said about not trusting this forum to be representative of most airline pilots. .
I think people aren't complaining about day to day stuff or that this job sucks, it's the future that concern many. It was a great career, even though you're gone for a lot of the time. But the benefits were good. Now people don't even have that other than non tangible benefits like a view at 40000 feet. When you get back on the ground you become uncertain again. Something that's not worth finding out if you're just starting out in the business. You are basically saying, it sucks but oh well at leas the view is good and we don't actually work. Well most of us do want the compensation and the benefits as well, not just about the view. |
Originally Posted by AirWillie
(Post 687165)
I would take your own advice... :D
I think people aren't complaining about day to day stuff or that this job sucks, it's the future that concern many. It was a great career, even though you're gone for a lot of the time. But the benefits were good. Now people don't even have that other than non tangible benefits like a view at 40000 feet. When you get back on the ground you become uncertain again. Something that's not worth finding out if you're just starting out in the business. You are basically saying, it sucks but oh well at leas the view is good and we don't actually work. Well most of us do want the compensation and the benefits as well, not just about the view. USMCFLYR |
Hi Guys, I wonder if any of you could comment about an ATPL career later in life? I am considering this and have the opportunity to do a full time Diploma of Aviation (Airline Pilot) commencing in 2010. It is for one year at an Australian University and covers PPL, CPL, ATPL with 160 hours flying to twin engine rating and all CASA subjects. Is it too late for me at 48 years old to consider a career in aviation? I have no previous flying experience but am familiar with flying through a keen interest of helicopters (also considering a CPL here instead). I saw the advertisement, I have the cash and the time to do an ATPL-A (about $80K Australian dollars) but will I ever get a job? Will I ever get my money back? I liked the comparison by Rickair of the corporate world to airline pilot and can I add my two cents? Yes, the Corporate world does suck as much as aviation. I HAVE walked away from a $160K job and now want to do something useful with my life. I hated the hours, I hated the bullying. Will flying full time be any different? Would anyone employ an ATPL with 200 hours even in a regional airline? There are supposedly 400 registered aviation companies in Australia and then we have Qantas, Qantaslink, Virgin, Rex and so on operating jets to 146s to 747s. Should I spend the money or not? Cheers...Doug.
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Originally Posted by Doug
(Post 692655)
Hi Guys, I wonder if any of you could comment about an ATPL career later in life? I am considering this and have the opportunity to do a full time Diploma of Aviation (Airline Pilot) commencing in 2010. It is for one year at an Australian University and covers PPL, CPL, ATPL with 160 hours flying to twin engine rating and all CASA subjects. Is it too late for me at 48 years old to consider a career in aviation? I have no previous flying experience but am familiar with flying through a keen interest of helicopters (also considering a CPL here instead). I saw the advertisement, I have the cash and the time to do an ATPL-A (about $80K Australian dollars) but will I ever get a job? Will I ever get my money back? I liked the comparison by Rickair of the corporate world to airline pilot and can I add my two cents? Yes, the Corporate world does suck as much as aviation. I HAVE walked away from a $160K job and now want to do something useful with my life. I hated the hours, I hated the bullying. Will flying full time be any different? Would anyone employ an ATPL with 200 hours even in a regional airline? There are supposedly 400 registered aviation companies in Australia and then we have Qantas, Qantaslink, Virgin, Rex and so on operating jets to 146s to 747s. Should I spend the money or not? Cheers...Doug.
I can tell you that you could have gotten a regional job here in the US in 2006-2007. It is probably easier here than anywhere else in the world. But right now there is little to no hiring, and the people who are getting hired probably already have plenty of airline experience. When hiring does resume they will probably have a pool of people with 1500-2000 hours, so a 200 hour pilot would not be considered. Worse the US congress will likely pass a law requiring an ATP for all airline pilots...we don't have a frozen ATP here, so you will need 1500 hours, period. If you come here you will have to work in general aviation (flight instruction, etc) to build time. Will you ever get your money back? Well, no of course not because you have to consider the "lost opportunity" cost of aviation. If you get paid $25K to fly and could have been making $150K, then you are making a negative $125k/year. Basically you are paying $125K per year for the privilege of flying. As far as quality of life and work environment, here in the US that depends on your seniority and the company in question...some have good climates, some horrible. With a few exceptions, european and pacific airlines are good places to work (Ryan is the notable exception). Not sure about small australian regionals. |
Atpl
Rick, this is what I am trying to work out. A change of career and an investment of $80K at 48 years old. I am not considering what I might earn elsewhere, just the return on my investment. If it only pays $25K per year (considering the Aussie dollar is at 90c US now, it's all pretty close) I would be better getting a job at MacDonalds. Is that all it pays? really? So where is the incentive to learn? Why is the pay so bad flying an aircraft? I am an electrician and made it into the corporate ranks over 30 years earning something close to a 767 Captain, but doesn't mean I want to continue doing that. My curiosity came about with the thread comparing corporate life to that of an airline pilot and I can say that corporate jobs do suck! I want out. Maybe a helicopter CPL for $45K is better value. A bit of tourism, some fire spotting, police, TV station might be a better way to go. At least you can start at about $60K.
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Originally Posted by Mustang87
(Post 684617)
I'm beginning to wonder if there are any pilots on these boards that actually enjoy their career.
Our profession has changed over the years but two of the biggest changes are the top-end pay at the majors has been severely diminished and the chances of working for a major carrier gets lower daily! The regional pay has always sucked, with tough schedules and poor working conditions. No longer is a regional viewed as a stepping stone but rather a potential career position. That being said strides are being made in the regional field. Regional pilots are paid more on average than I was when I started (even accounting for inflation). The aircraft flown are much more automated and comfortable than the old Bandits, shorts, metros, etc. The people that are really successful in this career are normally guys who really enjoy what they do and also understand the negatives and pitfalls of this career path. I for one really enjoy my job and I can say they same for 99% of the guys I work with! |
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