Regional Airline Academy?
 

I recently separated from the Army.I have no previous ratings,military or civillian,but a career in aviation is my ultimate goal.Based on what I've seen,it is my belief that although the "academies" prices for training border on staggering,attending one would be the best career route(I am well aware of the limited VA benefits).
Regional airline academy is the school that I am primarily considering attending.They seem to have a good reputation,and offer quality training.I've heard good and bad about every school,and RAA appears to be
one of the better ones.
Any recommendations or advise that will aid my decision would be greatly appreciated.

I am current military.
The first thing i would do is obtain your private license from a small FBO near wherever it is you live. This will allow you to get in the air and see if you truly love flying and would like to make a career of it (i am not doubting you will love it) It will also allow you to shop around and find the best rate and the best instructor to get this accomplished. The VA will not pay for any part of this rating at all, so get it where you want to get it.

As for RAA, I have not been there but here is what I can tell you. By attending RAA it will cost you more in the long run and not put you any further ahead then the others you are competing against. What it all comes down to are ratings are ratings and hours are hours, just because an RAA grad payed 80k for his ratings and hours does not make him a more competent qualified candidate then someone who payed 20k for his ratings and hours.

Use your VA benefits! They are not as limited as you might think. Attend a school that is VA approved after your private and they will pay right around 50 percent of the cost. They say 60, but the school you train at will give you more than the minimum the FAA requires for the rating, and the VA pays 60 percent of the minimum, so the extra hours are on you. But overall 50 percent is not bad at all, especially when we are talking tens of thousands of dollars.

You do not want to start your career where your first job will pay somewhere in the 20k range per year and at the same time have a $600 dollars per month loan payment for the next 20 years. Plan on paying roughly $100 dollars per month for every 10k borrowed. Seeing how you are recently seperated from the Army you should have a little cash saved up, use that for your training.

Schools that i would reccomend that will not take all of your money.

ATP- I believe cost around 44k and will give you all of your ratings, you can instruct for them for approximately a year after your last rating and end up with around 1000 or so TT and 600 or so ME. They do not accept VA benefits though so i would shy away for just that reason alone. They are a great school though

Ari-Ben- Probably my first choice. The school charges around 31k for the same exact ratings as the others and you can still instruct after your last rating for a year and end up at the 1000 and 600 mark. They are VA approved and will walk you through the out of pocket cost. The difference between them and ATP is that Ari is not a chain as ATP has locations all over the country. Also ATP has alot more money so their equipment is better maintained and newer and their facilities are nicer. With that being said Ari has nice planes and a nice location and their equipment is more than safe and airworthy, well worth the 14k savings.

Local VA approved FBO- You might have one at your home airport where you get your private. You can get a great deal with them sometimes with block time and just stick with the small environment and the one on one attention.

RAA and others promise job placement etc. however that means nothing and i wouldnt even care about that promise. Pilots get hired all the time from all over due to their experience and the overall way they present themselves through the entire interview process. ATP has graduates hired into the regionals and others every month. Just last month i believe that Ari had i think 6 instructors hired by Xjet and i think some others at Colgan.

Just my two cents on the issue, do not get caught up with the glamor and what the recruiter tells you on the phone or how nice their website is. What i looked at for my ratings was...Are they VA approved? If the government is offering it, i am taking it. Are they the cheapest? A rating is a rating is a rating. I can fly the worlds most beat up cessna 120 taildragger at a rundown FBO just as well as someone at a large academy who is flying a 2006 172 skyhawk SP with Garmin G1000, and the regionals and others....they will not care what you flew. Since they do not care where you flew, what you flew, or anything else of the like why not save all the money you can. Your Commercial Multi engine rating will not say where you got it or how much you paid. Let your skill show for itself, that is what will pay off at the interviews.

RAA is by far the most expensive of the academies. They make you get an RJ type rating which is totally unnecessary, and a waste of over $20k.
I would do your training at an FBO near your home. You don't have to move.

My recommendation would be to do your licenses and ratings at an FBO. It will save you at least $20,000 (Perhaps 30-50k at RAA) for the same training. At an academy, you will pay $55 an hour for instruction. At an FBO you will pay about $35 an hour for instruction. The flip side, when you want to instruct to timebuild, acadmies will only pay you $14 an hour. The FBO will pay you $25-35 an hour. BIG DIFFERENCE! At an academy, you will pay $105 for an old cessna, while at an FBO you will pay $80-90 for an old cessna. At an academy you will pay over $200 an hour for a multi, while those cost about $150 at an FBO. As crazy as these prices are, the place where these academies make their money is ground school. If you take the hours of ground school divided by the total cost, it works out to like $20 an hour for a class of 10-20 people. That's too much! And $20 is a very conservative number. At American Flyers, it is $80 an hour for classroom instruction. That is more than classes cost at Harvard on Stanford!!!
Also, at RAA they make you get an RJ type rating that costs a STAGGERING $20,000+. This is unnecesary. There is absolutely no need for this. When you get hired at any airline, they will pay for you to get this type rating. Do not pay your own money for a type.

That is why I recommend an FBO over an airline academy. It is much cheaper, you will make more money, and the training can be accomplished in the SAME amount of time. Find an instructor who is available 7 days a week, and who does not have a busy schedule. Tell him how often you want to fly, and schedule plenty in advance, so you can fly as often as you are able. FBO's are the way to go.

I'll second what Ryane says. The "academies" aren't worth it. It gets pretty hard to pay off $70k in loans when you're only making $20k per year and have to live on that as well.

Go to a local flight school, on your schedule. Pay for as much of the training outright as you can.

Be advised that there are lots of FBO operations out there that are just as shady as the pilot factories. You're going to be spending a ton of money no matter which route you take so do your homework and find the school that is the best fit for you.

Wrong on both counts.

Airlines expect you to have licenses and a certain amount of flight experience (and a 4-year degree for the better ones). Where you get the licenses doesn't matter at all unless you were a military pilot. Why pay a huge chunk of change when you can get the same thing in your home town where you can live with family, do it at your own pace, and maybe hold down a job?

The unfortunate reality is that very few of the high-dollar "glossy-brochure" flight schools offer a better product:

1) Their instructors are the same low-time instructors you would find anywhere else...if they were highly experienced, high time CFIs they would quit and go fly for an airline, or go freelance and make $50/hr instead of $10/hr. You might get a high-time CFI who happens to have too many DUI's...

2) Their airplanes are same as anywhere else. The only difference is that they spend your outrageous tuition on new paint jobs, so the airplanes look good on the outside to impress the next batch of potential suckers. In the future you might see some schools getting glass-cockpit training airplanes, which might actually be beneficial to an aspiring commercial pilot.

3) They often brag about maintenance...well the FAA regulates what Mx has to be done, and pretty everybody does exactly that. There might be a few small operations that try to take Mx shortcuts, but they usually end up losing all of their licenses and facing serious fines.


The reality is that they try to convince you that by paying more, you get a better product. What actually happens is that they sell you the same or worse product as smaller schools and FBO's, and pocket the huge price difference...very lucrative.

I understand that as an ex-military guy you naturally find a structured, apparently organized training process to be more attractive than a small operation, but the costs vs. benefit are just too far out of line.

If you disregard what people are telling you here, I can almost guarantee that in 4 years when you are spending every dime of your regional FO salary on loan repayments you will know exactly what we are talking about and will REALLY wish you had listened to the voice of experience...my hindsight is 20/20 !

I stand corrected,thanks for all the help with RAA.Anyone have any other info on schools worth looking into?

Avoid any place with "academy" in the name unless it's preceded by the words United States xxxx xxxx.

local FBOs
 

It's less than ATP but I haven't heard anything about them...I'm not trying to ruffle your feather - did you go there or know the owners?

To the original question in the thread - yeah you can go to a local FBO and save money but local FBO you find most of the CFIs seem to care more about their logbook vice getting you your rating.

Go somewhere where you can get all your ratings for a fixed price in a fixed amount of time(www.allatps.com).

You don't want to waste your time (in some cases years ) trying to get the ME time or 1,000 hours TT at any local mom and pop FBO (hang out there once you retire from 121 )

Don't worry about GI BILL benefits for flight training - most places adjust their rates to suck your money , if you're military or a veteran their 'gi joe' rate is adjusted to get the lions share your cash.

GI BILL is better spent on an education. You don't need more than a BA/BS - if you're interested in the Majors or have the time / money get an MBA from any of these on-line places...

-LAFF

Rick ,

I agree with your post. However, I've been burned at local FBOs by CFIs and crappy service so many times that I was just glad to be done with my PPL after going thru 3 FBO and 6 CFIs that I refuse to train at another one again. I'll work an extra 10 years so I can front load the training at a place like ATPs before I step foot in an FBO. I hate even driving by one...

-LAFF

That's very insightful, and part of the reason I was suckered. I wonder if they specifically market to that mentality to some degree.

It is...I think they do market to military types...

-LAFF

Yes and yes. I was living in NY with my PPL and they were recommended to me by a corp pilot flying for what was then Grumman. Called them, was mailed some info and went for it. IFR thru MEI in 10 weeks.(yes, I busted my A$$, but never a checkride, to finish that quick)That was over 10 years ago. I became friends with and still consider Herb and his family a part of mine. His prices are reasonable and he knows his stuff. I wouldn't put the link on here other wise. Contacts I met there provided me with many flying opportunities when I was low time and even my first airline job. It's a smaller, honest, mostly family run operation. It may or may not be for you. I can only say it worked for me and I wouldn't change a thing.

Thanks for your posts...I have to check them out in the future. I'm years away from flying for a living. I still have 8 to go before retirement from the AF...

I see you fly f-16s - where are you stationed. I'm at Langley, AFB - intel officer.

-LAFF

I think the structured environment appeals to lots of people, some folks just like organization (military types fall into this category), and some are just slackers who don't have the initiative to go network at the FBO.

Streucture is a good thing, but in this case it is not worth tens of thousands of extra dollars :mad:

Caveat Emptor certainly applies in this industry, but there decent schools and the internet can help you find them!

I wish APC had been available in my day...

I went to RAA in Phoenix 2 weeks ago and pretty impressed with their program, but I think I'm going to learn at McAir Aviation in Denver.

The thing I found out today is that RAA charges you for your type rating but you can actually get it for free when you get hired at an airline.

The thought of having to live in 112 degree Phoenix doesn't really appeal to me either. Also, you can't fly over 104 degrees, which usually happens around noon.

I have been to McAir. I did my private pilots license out of Jeffco airport, which is where McAir is located. Good school. But let me make you aware of some of the drawbacks:

1. Their airplanes are brand new. Simple translation. They will cost a lot more. Ultimately, airlines will not care if you flew a 2006 C-172, or a 1980 C-172. The only difference is that you will pay about $30 an hour more X 200hrs == $6,000+ dollars. I would recommend Journey's aviation. McAir is all Cessna's. Journeys has an amazing mix or 152, 172, 182, warrior, archer, seminole, katana, diamond star, and a few others. Aircraft are among the cheapest in the area (172's for $75 an hour). There is a sweet 172RG that rents for $80 an hour. PLEASE, take the time to look at this school. I think it might be a better choice.

2. Jeffco airport. I have 900hrs. I have flown to over 60 airports. Everything from giant class B airports, to small uncontrolled fields in the middle of no where, to crazy mountain airports.
And I still hold the opinion that Jeffco (kbjc) is the hardest airport I have ever flown into.
Class D airport, control tower, parallel runways (close together) and a crossing runway. BUSY. Not quite class B busy, but I have had many occassions where I sat in the run-up area for 10+ minutes waiting for a takeoff clearence. So busy they often had 2 different tower frequencies for 2 runways, because the radio was so busy.

Everything from 152's to Gulfstream 5's to helicopters. It is not uncommon to be landing on 29L in a C-172, with a Gulfstream off your right wing for 29R (caution wake turbulence), and a helicopter off your left wing for the delta taxiway. Did I mention these runways are a few hundred feet apart :eek: .
This is also an airport that gets mountain weather. Jeffco airport tends to have its own little "weather system" parked over it. About 75% of the time I flew, the winds were over 20kts. No joke. ALWAYS over 20kts after 11am. It could be 190@3 in Boulder (10 miles away), but it will be 260@23g29 at Jeffco. They will tell you Colorado gets 300+ days of sunshine a year (and it does), but remember that they get more days of hurricane force winds than Miami does.

I was once in a 152, full power, losing 1200 feet per minute, just 900 feet off the ground. Watch out for powerful up and down drafts, and watch for mountain wave. Mountain wave is very poorly understood concept. Imagine a river...water flowing at 50-100mph downstream, and hitting a bunch of rocks ---> RAPIDS! The same is true for air flowing over the rockies. Watch out for standing lenticular clouds, rotors, and any other dangerous mountain weather. The best trick when flying around Jeffco is to stay 7,000ft or below. Above that, expect moderate turbulence.

Don't let me discourage you. Jeffco is an amazing airport. I am so happy I learned to fly there. Once you fly there, you can fly anywhere. You become great at radio communication, situational awareness, and high wind landings. Weather delays will be no more, if not less than most places in the country. Just be very careful with the mountain weather.
Good luck. Let me know if I can help you out with flight school choices, or Jeffco airport in general.
Ryan

Has anyone out there gone to RAA or a similar academy/school? I'd like to hear from someone who has actually been through their program.I appreciate all of the responses to my original post(No,I'm not being ignorant here),but I can't help but feel that I'm getting nothing but responses from people who are against the academies.YES,I know they are more expensive than training at an FBO,but would there really be so many of them out there if there wasn't some kind of benefit?

Thanks for the "heads up".
I kinda figured that out when I took a discovery flight there, it was very bumpy and windy, but the way I look at it, it's better to learn in an environment like that because it will prepare you for anything. Besides, if you get up early in the morning around here, it's really not that windy.

GL,
Unfortunately for the most part this is an anti-academy forum so it will be difficult, not impossible to find some people with positive things to say about the academies.

I would not pay for it, but now that they mention it i would enjoy a more structured training environment. I love the military and how it works and i like the structured environment. It surprises me when people say a school scares them simply because you have to wear a pilot shirt and khakis. There are worse things that can happen and i would rather be associated with a school that looks professional then the alternative...ive seen what some people consider appropriate civilian attire and it is scary, but that is just my oppinion and to each is own.

As for using your GI benefits...i am a big ATP advocate but they do not accept VA....use them..people have said the savings are minimal..and i assure you that they are not. Debt is the devil more then the devil himself and i will give you this example. Ari-Ben charges roughly 31k for their program, your out of pocket cost will be roughly 18k total (this is confirmed) that is saving 13k and in some cases a little more. That is far from nothing in the long run.

As far as using your GI bill for school...absolutely, do that too. Now factor this, using my above calculation and factoring that the GI benefits equal 36k, subtract 13k from that and it still leaves you 23k for school after you have all of your private pilot ratings. You can absolutely 100 percent get a degree for that kind of money.

Here is what i did. Clep out of the majority of your general education classes, they are roughly 100 dollars per test (if you are still active duty they are free) and if you score well enough you will recieve credits for that general education course at most every accredited college so you will not have to take those classes.

Next..as far as your military training and education. You have credits built into your military training that are universally accepted again at most accredited colleges and these will count towards your electives. I have enough credits through the military where i do not have to take a single elective credit class.

Next..the required courses, you will have to take these but if for some reason you do a degree in aviation the required courses are your ratings that you will get regardless and the groundschool associated with them. It sounds too good to be true but you can achieve a degree for little money for only physically doing a few actual courses from the school, and those can be done online. A degree is much easier then some say and if you go about it inteligently and are methodical in your research it will surprise you how easy it is.

So that is my story. Your GI bill is worth something, you should use it for training to avoid debt and you will still have enough left over for a degree, albeit not Harvard or Yale, but Continental, or Southwest and especially Xjet will not care where it is from, as long as it exist.

Good luck on your research though, i hope you find what you are looking for.

There is ABSOLUTELY a major benefit associated with the airline academy concept...unfortunately that benefit is to the owners of the academies, not to the pilots. The reason there are so many of them out there is that most people new to professional flying don't know any better! That may be changing...today the internet is probably helping to educate a few folks that would have been suckered in the past.

This board is not anti-academy, it is simply a pilot board and academies are not good for pilots. If you want a web site that presents a positive view of pilot academies, check out the academy's own web sites...they will tell you everything you want to hear! :rolleyes: Maybe there is a forum for flight school operators...

Of course somebody is going to mention the 747 captain who sent his daughter to XXX academy...well when I worked for one of the big flight schools, we had a UAL 777 captain come in with his daughter to enquire about training...what ended up happening was we gave her a 50% discount on the "career package" in exchange for using a picture of the two of them in our marketing literature!

BTW, Flight safety is a great operation, very reputable, which used by professional turbine pilots world-wide, including some smaller airlines. It is not to be mentioned in the same breath as all those other "academies". They mainly do turbine aircraft training, but I'm sure their ab initio program is just fine, but I'm also sure it is very expensive. If money is no object at all to you then that would be the place to look at.

ATP seems to have combination of large-organization structure, and a resonably priced al-carte menu of training programs. My experience there is limited though.

Dude, bottom line is that the experienced guys are telling you not to go the academy route. The newbies all think the training will be top notch in 'their opinion' which is based on limited to no flying knowledge. Something to think about.

Shawn,

Got a question for you. Where can I find more detailed information concerning the flight benefits from the VA. Some have said it'll only pay 60% for the COM. I was under the impression it will pay for the minimum required hours for the following: IFR ticket, AMEL, COM, and ATP, essentially all advanced training ABOVE PPL. Is this correct? Could you send me a link from the VA, or any other organization (military.com, etc) that can spell this out a bit better.

Some academies are worth it, some are not. I'm finishing up my Commercial Single here at DCA and I have to say, the wealth of knowledge that is around this school is simply amazing. I've learned so much. There is no way I could have learned what I have from a local FBO back in Nashville. However, I am transferring to Regional because my next 3 ratings (CME, CFI, CFII) will be much cheaper. Plus I can get my MEI much sooner at RAA(after 150 dual given) then DCA(800 dual given). I'm impressed with these flight schools. If you don't care about how much you pay, then go to an academy. Its well worth the knowledge you get. Hope this helps.