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Regional airline pilot mills vs the military

Old 12-31-2009, 10:46 PM
  #11  
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blastoff, I agree with you. I too am a hybrid earning all my civilian ratings up to my MEI prior to joining the military. Granted I went through the Navy side of the house but the instruction, equipment and professionalism in the military was light years ahead of my civilian training. That being said at the time I went through Navy training there were no FAIPs, all instructors were at least second or third tour.
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Old 01-01-2010, 07:08 AM
  #12  
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I don't really have a good overall view like some of you do on the subject... but...I've flown with a handful of former Navy tailhook guys.. and I've been very, very impressed with the level of proficiency in stick and rudder, instrument skills and overall precision (aerobatics and form). I can't tell you how much I've learned from these guys. One thing that really stuck out to me, was that they all had a real desire to learn the systems and characteristics of new aircraft to them.... and they all wanted to be proficient in whatever it was that they were flying, no matter what they've flown in the past. Another thing is that they have a very complete brief/debrief of what they will do/have done in the air pertaining to formation and training stuff. I can't say that I know what exactly happens in military flight training... only that I've been very impressed with the product of their training and overall thought process and approach to flying.
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Old 01-01-2010, 10:05 AM
  #13  
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Why do ya'll use acronyms the you kNOW most of us dont know What is a FAIP? Is that something I am supposed to automatically know?
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Old 01-01-2010, 10:25 AM
  #14  
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Originally Posted by toomanyrjs View Post
Military training is FAR superior to anything in the Civy world. Any idiot with a pulse and a checkbook automatically qualifies for top honors from any puppy mill flight school.

Here is god's gift to aviation.
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Old 01-01-2010, 11:45 AM
  #15  
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Originally Posted by N6724G View Post
Why do ya'll use acronyms the you kNOW most of us dont know What is a FAIP? Is that something I am supposed to automatically know?
FAIP = First Assignment Instructor Pilot.

A guy graduates from Air Force Pilot Training and stays on as an instructor (No different then at ATP and most other civilian flight schools). A dreaded assignment for some...they want to get the hell out of a podunk town (All of the UPT bases). Desired for others as its perceived that FAIPs get their 1st or second choice of assignment after. Usually a FAIP graduated near the top of his class.

The anti-military training guys always point to this to defend the "experience" of instruction at part 141 schools.

What they don't tell you is (at least in the Air Force system) you rotate between 4-5 Instructors in each phase of your training. 1 or 2 may be FAIPs, the others have at least 4 years operational experience flying fighters or heavy's in the real world.
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Old 01-01-2010, 02:35 PM
  #16  
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There are good and bad in both military and civilian training. I have flown with many different pilots, civilian and former military. Some are good, some are not. As a matter of fact, the worst already certificated instrument pilot I have ever flown with (the only time I was sure he knew his position was #1 for departure and after I had vectored him to the final approach course on the final VISUAL approach) is currently training new Navy pilots through their initial training. Having flown with this guy personally, I can assure you, these Navy pilots are NOT involved in the best training available. Also, I am not suggesting that this is typical of military training, but making a broad statement like "military training is the best" is not necessarily accurate. What is the mission? Does the military train for that? If not, it can't be the best in that category. I think the statement should be qualified. Who would you rather have with you on final approach without an autopilot in icing shooting an ILS to minimums in Helena, MT? Military fighter pilot or Great Lakes 3 year captain? Without any other information, I'll take the Lakes captain.
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Old 01-01-2010, 04:10 PM
  #17  
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Originally Posted by AtlCSIP View Post
Military fighter pilot or Great Lakes 3 year captain? Without any other information, I'll take the Lakes captain.
Option 3:

The ex-Shemya AFB, Alaska KC-135 pilot.


Originally Posted by AtlCSIP View Post
making a broad statement like "military training is the best" is not necessarily accurate. What is the mission? Does the military train for that? If not, it can't be the best in that category.
Your point about the mission shows little knowledge about military aviation. As if MIL pilots aren't trained departure, cruise, and arrival. The majority of USAF pilots fly heavies made by Boeing and McDonnell Douglas and frequently fly IMC. Most KC-135 and C-130 pilots fly instrument approaches by hand. Regardless, as we're talking about INITIAL training done in aircraft whose names begin with a "T-" which is superior to initial training in civilian pistons. Although adding building blocks to one day fly the "mission," initial flying training (first 13 months) in the Military is about basic VFR/IFR flying and formation and your ability to process stress and still operate an aircraft. There is no argument that any civilian training anywhere is better. It doesn't exist. For some reason civilian trained guys take offense...no one thinks you're any less of a pilot, you just didn't have the opportunity. If you're sharp you don't necessarily need the best training, which is why I know many civilian trained guys who are much better pilots than some AF guys I know. By the way, nearly every civilian airline training program is modeled after Air Force UPT. One of the few cases where the Civ world has borrowed from the Military instead of the other way around. The add when Compass was hiring for their training department read, "USAF UPT instructor experience preferred."

Everybody likes to point out that "one fighter pilot I know."

Again, just because a guy receives the best training doesn't mean at the end of the day he's a better pilot. It doesn't disqualify the quality of training he received (which could have been 20 years ago too). One thing that affects fighter pilots is that IMC is avoided throughout their careers, degrading their IFR proficiency...it doesn't mean they weren't instructed well when they went through UPT years earlier. Most just need to get proficient at it again.


Experience (or lack there of) can undo good training or overcome a lack of training. This thread is about what is the best training, not who would you trust or rather fly with.

Last edited by blastoff; 01-01-2010 at 04:49 PM.
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Old 01-01-2010, 07:02 PM
  #18  
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Originally Posted by blastoff View Post
FAIP = First Assignment Instructor Pilot.

A guy graduates from Air Force Pilot Training and stays on as an instructor (No different then at ATP and most other civilian flight schools). A dreaded assignment for some...they want to get the hell out of a podunk town (All of the UPT bases). Desired for others as its perceived that FAIPs get their 1st or second choice of assignment after. Usually a FAIP graduated near the top of his class.

The anti-military training guys always point to this to defend the "experience" of instruction at part 141 schools.

What they don't tell you is (at least in the Air Force system) you rotate between 4-5 Instructors in each phase of your training. 1 or 2 may be FAIPs, the others have at least 4 years operational experience flying fighters or heavy's in the real world.

Thanks. I got it. I just needed to know what the definition of the acronym. I have many IP friends from SUPT.

Although I was trained the civilian route,I have to agree that the military flight training (speaking AF/Navy/USMC only, not army) is some of the best flight training in the world. But when you think about it it makes sense.

What is the one thing we as civilian pilots worry about when it comes to getting our certificates? MONEY. So we will do the minimum the FAA calls for to get our certificates. 40 hours total time for peivate, 250 hours total time for comercial. Our walletes come into play when flying.

The military guys however dont have that limitation.They can step into a T-38 and bust clouds all day and not have to worry about a hobbs meter. They dont have to worry about how much its gonna cost at the end of the lesson. In fact,they are getting paid to do it.

So, I think the hobbs meter is also a factor in the quaity of training. The civilian guy is gonna go up for a sepcified amount of hours whereas the military guy is not restricted to that and therefore can actually spend more time in the air perfecting their skill.

Also, brand new pilots are also brand new military offices. They have gone through an officer training program that where it doesnt prepare them to be better pilots., but it does prepare them to be leaders and decision makers. Your average (not all) 21 year old that steps out of ATP with all his stuff hasnt neccessarily had the leadership training. he is a great technician and can operate the aircraft but I think it takes leadership also to be a good PIC.
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Old 01-02-2010, 11:45 AM
  #19  
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A career in the military consists of maybe 5000 hours over a 20 year period, depending on what you are flying.

A civilian has usually put in a lot more flight time just to get to the point that he can interview with a regional airline.

Delta pilots landed on a taxi way last year. Were they military or civilian trained?

Northwest overflies Minneapolis. Were they military or civilian trained?

Weren't there still accidents when most of the pilots were coming out of the military?

Yes, there are still civilian trained pilot accidents but there are still military trained pilot accidents too.

How many military trained pilots accidents compared to how many civilian trained pilot accidents? This is me shrugging.

Flying is as a hobby and profession that depends on how you approach it. There is no lack of training or literature available for those who want it and are willing to learn from past mistakes. And it depends on you, how safe you are.

So who is to say?

Jeff
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P.S. - Use your checklist. Use CRM. Challenge your partner when you think something is not right. Put the newspaper down.
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Old 01-02-2010, 01:11 PM
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Well I hope military pilots are better!!!!! I spent 50K on helicopter conversion courses for a Commercial and Instrument rotorcraft helicopter a few years ago. I heard the Navy spends about $500K to train their helo guys. So they better be better by a factor of 10.

I did my FW training all the way through Comm. Inst, & ME for $10,000 bucks. The price at the time of a new Lincoln Continental. What does it cost nowadays to train a military pilot?

I was a CFI at age 20 and instructing doctors and lawyers What are military guys doing at age 20? Panty raids on campus?

BTW - way back when I was a Lear SIC we hired an retired SAC pilot. He was flying our Lears at 45.0 even though they were certified to only 41.0 (old tired ones). The CP was going to give him a second chance but the guy called the CEO (we where a division of a publicly traded company) and the CEO thought he had "mental" problems and canned him. I’m sure there’s countless stories were civy guys messed up too.

It's better to drop this, "who is better arguement" as it's a waste of time.
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