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Clearance from airport underlying Bravo

Old 02-21-2010, 05:26 PM
  #11  
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Originally Posted by USMCFLYR View Post
I do know that when entering Restricted airspace that all I needed to do was to have established radio contact (the controller at least having used my callsign IIRC) in order to enter the Restricted Area.

USMCFLYR
Are you talking about flying through a restricted area as a normal GA pilot? In that case you just need to check with the controlling agency if it's cold or not, and if it's cold you can just truck on through?

In regards to Noy's letter, I agree with the verbage used there, that you are not operating under any kind of ATC clearance if you're just receiving headings and altitudes.
You need to hear the word "cleared" in there somewhere, or it's not an ATC clearance as far as I'm concerned.

Btw Noy, I just keep slinging out statements, and you provide the chief councel letters, I like this arrangement
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Old 02-21-2010, 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Photon View Post
Are you talking about flying through a restricted area as a normal GA pilot? In that case you just need to check with the controlling agency if it's cold or not, and if it's cold you can just truck on through?

In regards to Noy's letter, I agree with the verbage used there, that you are not operating under any kind of ATC clearance if you're just receiving headings and altitudes.
You need to hear the word "cleared" in there somewhere, or it's not an ATC clearance as far as I'm concerned.

Btw Noy, I just keep slinging out statements, and you provide the chief councel letters, I like this arrangement
No - in this case I was referring to NGDI's statement about
Bottom line: IFR or VFR, whatever airspace you happend to be talking about, you are not on a clearance, unless you hear the word "cleared." Period
I was saying that in the case of Restricted airspace that I used often that I often entered that airspace after establishing communication with the controller and before he ever used the words "cleared into...... airspace"

Yes - for certain special use airspace anyone can go through it if it is cold without any type of clearence. Lots of past discussion on this forum about VFR traffic flying through MOAs for example - including hot MOAs. Usually used as an example of LEGAL yet not a great idea (much like the situation used in this particular thread about hearing the words "cleared into...").

I look forward to diving into this more and more

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Old 02-21-2010, 08:03 PM
  #13  
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but you don't need a clearance to enter restricted airspace? Or is there some aspect of what you're saying here that's blowing past my head?

§ 91.133 Restricted and prohibited areas.
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(a) No person may operate an aircraft within a restricted area (designated in part 73) contrary to the restrictions imposed, or within a prohibited area, unless that person has the permission of the using or controlling agency, as appropriate.

(b) Each person conducting, within a restricted area, an aircraft operation (approved by the using agency) that creates the same hazards as the operations for which the restricted area was designated may deviate from the rules of this subpart that are not compatible with the operation of the aircraft.
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Old 02-21-2010, 08:15 PM
  #14  
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Originally Posted by USMCFLYR View Post
I'm not sure where you got that letter from, but with your permission,
You don't need my permission. It's not mine.

I posted the site in another thread:
Regulations

It's the FAA's regulatory counsel web site. They started publishing the opinions on the site about 3 years ago. This is one of the newer ones.
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Old 02-21-2010, 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Photon View Post
but you don't need a clearance to enter restricted airspace? Or is there some aspect of what you're saying here that's blowing past my head?
Yeah - we are talking past each other here.

NGDI said that no matter the airspace you had to hear the words "Cleared" and I said that I have entered Restricted airpace (a type of airspace) without having heard the words "cleared into"
My requirement before entering that airspace was to have made radio contact with the controlling agency and that contact was made as soon as that controller used my callsign.

Scenario: I'm heading toward R-2508. The controller is real busy and I can't get a word in edgewise. I finally get a call in and Joshua says "Raider 51 standby". BINGO - I just got my clearence into the airspace that I was scheduled for. If he had said "aircraft calling Joshua, standby" then I would have not been cleared ito the airspace - and now you are in an uncomfortable situation of being on an IFR clearence but having reached a clearence limit without further instructions and more aircraft coming behind you. LUCKILY - Joshua was sometimes busy but always got the clearence out

This is what Rickair and I were talking about. A little off topic in a way but it was about clearence and airspace so a worthy discussion.

Back to your (our original) situation; it seems there is a difference in interpetation. This question will be great to pursue and we'll all be smarter (I hope ) in the end.

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Old 02-21-2010, 08:26 PM
  #16  
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Originally Posted by NoyGonnaDoIt View Post
You don't need my permission. It's not mine.

I posted the site in another thread:
Regulations

It's the FAA's regulatory counsel web site. They started publishing the opinions on the site about 3 years ago. This is one of the newer ones.
Excellent - I'll forward that along and see if its gets any clarification.

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Old 02-22-2010, 04:44 AM
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Originally Posted by USMCFLYR View Post
Yeah - we are talking past each other here.

NGDI said that no matter the airspace you had to hear the words "Cleared" and I said that I have entered Restricted airpace (a type of airspace) without having heard the words "cleared into"
No. I said
IFR or VFR, whatever airspace you happend to be talking about, you are not on a clearance, unless you hear the word "cleared."
I probably could have said it better but I mean that if the airspace requires a clearance, you need to hear the word "cleared."

For example, a VFR flight does not need a clearance to enter Class C airspace. It needs to establish 2-way communication and the Class C controllers can always tell the pilot to stay out of the airspace, but no "clearance" is required and, if the controller is following "the book" the VFR pilot will not hear the word "cleared into the Class C" as part of his communications.

Your restricted airspace example is different in at least two respects. First, the restricted airspace rule talks in terms of "permission of the using or controlling agency" not of a "clearance."

Second, you say
and now you are in an uncomfortable situation of being on an IFR clearence but having reached a clearence limit without further instructions and more aircraft coming behind you.
That also makes the situation different, although I don't have the full picture from your post. You are already on a "clearance" since you are IFR and heard the word "cleared" way back, probably when you were still on the ground. When under IFR, it's ATC that arranges for the restricted airspace "permission" if needed. If the permission of the controlling agency had not been given, your IFR clearance would not put you into restricted airspace. See AIM 3-4-3(b).

I'm also not precisely sure what you mean by having reached a clearance limit. If in fact, you did reach a clearance limit (as in "cleared to the XYZ VOR...expect further clearance...") then you are dealing, not with restricted airspace issues, but basic run-of-the-mill ATC clearance issues.
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Old 02-22-2010, 05:41 AM
  #18  
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I know the one time I was cleared into a restricted airspace (civilian jet on an IFR flight plan), the controller said "EJAXXX, cleared into restricted airspace RXXX" Can't remember where it was, somewhere just north of Mexico in AZ. We were told don't go anywhere near the antennas on the south side of the field, we said, okey-dokey. The airspace had gone cold before we left again. Up here in Canada, they differentiate between and ATC instruction and clearance. The instruction you have to do, the clearance you have to comply with, AFTER it is accepted. Maybe some ATC types could chime in, how they handle their lingo.
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Old 02-23-2010, 08:47 AM
  #19  
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Originally Posted by longhorn79 View Post
Newbie here, just starting to get a taste of Bravo airspaces.

Let's say you are going to depart Orlando Exec which underlies Orlando Int'l. Will the Orlando Exec controller's copy clearance contain an understood clearance into the Overlying bravo? They'll be giving you the frequency for Orlando approach so you're already connected with the bravo controllers then. My thought is that if they start giving you climbing instructions, say climb to 3,000ft, you're being put up into the bravo technically without them saying the "cleared" magic word for VFR. Haven't done this before, but I would just expect them to have you fly through the bravo towards your destination rather than keep you below 1,600ft for 5-10 miles which just doesn't sound that great over a relatively populated area if you have engine trouble. Any clarifications?
Taking off from Orlando Exec VFR... usually I've always switched to approach pretty quick ... as soon as you say "aircraft blah blah, 2 mi N of exec, climbing through 1000' to XXXX" - everytime their response has been.... "Roger, radar contact..cleared into Bravo - continue to XXXX, etc"

If departing to the North... I usually just climb slow until the 4nm mark where Bravo goes up from 1600 to 2000.

I've always assumed that since they said "cleared into Bravo" ...that means prior to that I wasn't.

It's always seemed to work.

also - usually on approach to exec..of KISM for that matter.... they keep you pretty low like 1000' - because of the arrival/departure end of MCO.
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Old 02-23-2010, 12:31 PM
  #20  
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Makes me wonder about the "everything explained" author. He says the letter covers center giving you a vector and not the controlling authority. Yet the FAA example talks about SoCal TRACON. I'm willing to bet they're the gatekeepers to the LAX Class B.

And I got 200+ hits off the FAA legal site for "class B airspace clearance." He ought to learn to cut out the middle man.
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