The Big Question
 

So... After spending anywhere from $40k-however much for flight training, my biggest fear is, well, first, finding a flying job. I'm thinking the industry should begin to turn around in about three years or so. But, for my BIG question, how does one pay a $600+ loan payment while making $18k or $20k the first few years of instructing, etc.? I am finding it hard to bite the bullet and finish pursuing my dream with this monumental issue banging around in my head. If anyone has done it, which I'm sure many have, how do you do it? How do or did you afford to live and pay a loan payment for the first few years? I'm sure this would be much easier if I weren't married with a mortgage, but I'm getting a late start. Any suggestions or words of wisdom and encouragement will be GREATLY appreciated!

Wegs =)

My loans are from an aviation university, so there was 6 month grace period after graduation. I didn't find a flying job (aerial survey) until 10 months after graduation so during this time my parents helped me a lot with living expenses and the rest I was living off credit cards and the scant income from various non-flying menial jobs. I was on forebearance from the time the 6 month grace period ended and the repayment period kicked in. I was still on forebearance after I got the survey job because my pay was low. The regionals were hiring in full force then so I got picked up by Colgan after barely finishing a season of surveying. Regional pay as you know is terrible, but I busted my butt to pick up a ton of extra flying (open time) and was making enough money to comfortably pay all my bills (was no longer in forebearance) and still have some left over for about a year and a half. Then the combination of recession (no more open time) and my regional hiring this scheduling manager who got fired by Mesa whose idea of running a cheap efficient airline is to build every line below 75 hours and making sure no one ever makes over guarantee was essentially a huge paycut for me. (I was regularly crediting 120+ hrs a month and after this my pay never went over the 75 guarantee. That's a difference of at least $1000 every month.) I got a second part-time job as a waitress for a couple of months but in all honesty it sucked (pay-wise and also if you work 4 days for an airline and 3 days for the part-time job, that leaves you with no days off.. ever.) I guess what I'm basically saying is depending on how much your monthly loan payments are and what the rest of your living expenses are, you may not be able to get by on 75 guarantee alone, but that's what you have to budget for because that's the only thing the airline actually guarantees you - 75 hrs of pay. Depending on where you go (different airlines build lines more or less efficiently and obviously mine is far from efficient, plus airlines with good contracts offer a lot more "soft" pay credit) and when, you may be able to credit more then than that, but consider that just an extra. This past year has been brutal for me financially for the reasons I described, and I did get help from my parents once and my significant other helps me out too. You mentioned you were married - it will obviously help if she has a job. That is really the only way to survive - either you get a second job or your wife helps pay the chunk of bills. Also, I don't know whether your loans are federal or private, but fed loans will be a lot more accomodating with your income level. If you are struggling they will work with you. Private loans, not at all.
To tell you the truth I am single and struggling - I really have no idea how the guys who are married with kids do it, and there are plenty of them at the regionals. With the exception of those few who are independently wealthy, I would have to guess that they live extremely frugally and/or get help from family. But, the living frugally part only goes so far when you're still only making $1300/month and you have a mortgage and a student loans to cover.

I'm a little confused on your situation: are you finished with flight training with a Comm. AMEL or are you about to go into flight training?
If you haven't started training, then I'll give you much repeated advice that circulates these boards.
Here's the cliff notes: Work on your training part-time while you work another job so you DONT go into debt. You emerge as CFI/II/MEI, whole 9 yards with 0 debt. Then you can try to get a job instructing while working part time elsewhere to make ends meat. Eventually you might be able to get enough hours (good luck finding multi-time) to get a job. Either way, even dollar you get goes to something NEW, not paying off something that got you where you are now.
Sure its not a 4 month program that gives you everything, but people who did that either have rich parents (no fault of their own) or went into debt and have loan payments higher than first year FO payments.
If you MUST take loans out, try to stick with government loans. As kalyx522 said, they are a LOT more forgiving with low income. I qualify and since my loans are "subsidized", I don't have to pay interest while I am in deferment. Private loans are not so accommodating. Although there was a post somewhere about private loans possibly being cleared by bankruptcy. Not that I advise such course of action.
Welcome to the Jungle.

The logic is simple- if the pilot employment market is not offering enough in terms of compensation to cover the costs one must incur in order to enter the market, and right from the beginning, then it is foolish to enter such a market. Some loan companies will extend the money to you for a flight training loan knowing that you cannot repay them the entire time because it is a fact that these companies can make money even if you default on the loan or loans, and even more in the case that you do not. But clearly, it is a poor decision to enter into a business decision that signals failure, default and suspension of payments from the inception. Commercial- private sector flight training is almost always such a proposal. The present job market for pilots spells failure and subsequent default on the required investment contract. This is true whether the source is student loans or discretionary income. However, with discretionary income at least one can avoid destroying their personal finances, and this is the preferred method of undertaking flight training therefore. SnipperCR mentions this, and I agree. Spend your own money for flight training and avoid borrowing.

If your income provides for a surplus of over 10k a year or you live with your parent, this could work.

Personally, I am pursuing a dual career. I love flying but that is not the only thing in life that I enjoy. I am earning my bachelors in a field that offers a much higher level of security + a great starting salary. I have my ratings which I will use for flight instruction but only part-time. I did things in reverse but if I had to do it over again

1. Find a sustainable income in a solid field
2. Fly for pleasure or fly part-time AFTER my career is established

You have a good point and I agree now that I know better, but it may or may not be too late to not take out loans depending on how deep the OP is already into flight training. If he is close to being done no point in lecturing him about what a stupid decision it is to finance flying. (I agree with you it is not smart, just saying it is already too late for many who realize this.) Not directing this towards you at all, I just hate when people who are already in the industry who post genuine questions about how to get by, getting second job, etc. and there are those few pricks who always chime in with the completely smug and pointless "dont get a loan in the first place."

You have two, not just one issues to confront...

1. Is it physically possible for you to survive and meet your obligations in the short term? Odds are good that you can find a way to do this...beg, borrow, steal, impose on family, live in your car, sell meth, whatever it takes.

Yes, the "industry" will "turn around" in a few years. But what do we mean by industry? We mean entry-level/regionals. This leads to the second issue you should be contemplating...

2. The mainline industry will never turn around, odds are that it will continue in a gradual decline until major airlines are merely shell companies which buy their lift from a pool of viciously competitive subcontractors...this will keep compensation locked at whatever brand new pilots are willing to accept to break into the industry.

Why would you be willing to put subject yourself to #1 in order to get to #2? In the past it was worth paying dues and even taking career risks for a shot at a $300K job...but why would you do it today?

Like others have said, if you haven't incurred the debt yet STOP RIGHT NOW! go get a degree in a field which will provide a future, graduate, then get a job. After you have done that, then go back to flying on a part-time, pay-as-you-go basis. Have fun, keep earning ratings (unless it stops being fun). After you have a little experience in the real world and in aviation, then make a career decision based on conditions at that time. But don't blindly commit yourself to a dead-end road.

Additionally, it is far easier to get into aviation when you want when you have money, than try to get OUT of it into something else when you DONT have money. I am a CFI making minimum wage right now looking at grad schools. Forgot how expensive education was...

Wow
 

rickair7777,

Well done. Three years ago making a post like that was sure to draw the wrath of most everyone here. You would have been labeled as flame bate and negative. Today however it is prudent and widely accepted as a sound representation of the situation pilots face. As sad as that might be.

Wegs,

Seriously, to add to the above if you are going to have a reasonable chance at aviation you need to be single and debt free. Plan on spending the next twenty years living out of a suitcase and hanging your hat at a crash pad that is stuffed with pilots and beds. Get a degree in business.

Skyhigh

Good Point
 

Aviation is a sand trap. Spend all your money getting in and then you are stuck.

Skyhigh

I currently have only about 30 hours. I soloed and ran out of money. I have spent the past two years since being laid off from my well-paying job exploring careers and everything leads me right back to one place... Flying. Of course, neither of my parents are able to offer any financial support. The only problem with the loan situation is government loans are strictly for accredited schools, such as ERAU, etc. That would be my first choice, but, unfortunately, my life doesn't allow the time needed to devote to another 2.5 years of college.

Kalyx,

Awesome reply... Lots of good info... Thanks for taking the time to go into such detail.

I greatly appreciate everyone's input, whether it's what I wanted to hear or not. Bottom line... I understand the current state of the industry and, maybe it's me trying to talk myself into it saying, "You only live once. Do what makes you happy." Every time I start trying to figure out the remainder of my life and what I want to pursue, it ALWAYS takes me back to flying. Again, thank you all for your replies... =)

Wegs,

If it makes you feel better, I have known hundreds of pilots.....the best are the ones who have the "love" for flying and not the pay. Yes, you only live once and there are ways. Look into scholorships and take a deep look into your current way of living and start reajusting now. It can be done, and seroiusly consider the academic approach, you can get scholorships, pell grants and such. If you get real frugal, you can pay off as you go or at least put big chuncks into paying them off while in school so you are not paying so much once you are out.

This is the solid truth that many people don't want to hear. If you think you will be happy at a regional (hopefully not commuting) and can make a fair wage and still pay off your student loans then go for it. The days of making big money as a pilot are over. I love to fly and am willing to do it for a fair wage but also know that the days of making much money at it are over. If you truly are going for it because you love to fly I wish you the best of luck. Don't give up because it is gonna be a really long and hard road to travel.

^Agreed, agreed, agreed! If you make this job your life, and judge it based on how much you will make and how big of an airplane you will fly, you'll be miserable. Pilots have about 15 days off per month, so do something else you enjoy. Example-once I'm done with my flight training and (hopefully) flying for someone, I'm starting up a recording studio and music promotion business. Not the best paying job out there, but combine the pay with that of a regional pilot and its not that bad. One of my good friends who owns a studio makes $50/hour in his studio, which is just fine by me.

I could talk about wanting to make it in a band too, but let's leave that for another topic.

Military and other ideas
 

Wegs,

You could always try the military. The army currently a program where someone with some college and some flight training could become a Warrant Officer and fly helicopters. Then the possibility exists to transition to fixed wing later, or move to a different service branch once you finish college. You would make a decent living and get all your flight training free of charge.

If the military doesn't appeal to you, you could get a job at an FBO, preferably one with a flight school, even if it is part time. This will give you the opportunity to meet people, which can open up flying opportunities. This usually also provides a discount on airplane rental and instruction. I use to charge the line guys half of what I charged everyone else. One of the guys, (newly married, very hard worker, not a whiner) I did his entire instrument rating for $500 and his commercial single engine for free. He paid for the plane, of course.

Another way you can do it is to get in to maintenance and learn to fix airplanes. You can go to school to do it (public state school, not a private one), or just get a job and learn as you go. This can open up flying opportunities also, and the A&P is often a desireable qualification.

Regardless of what you do, pay as you go. Save up some money and finish your cross country stuff. Then save up your money and do your checkride prep and checkride. Then fly your wife around a little while building about 25 hours of cross country time, also with cash, before starting your instrument rating. Save up your money to do the instrument rating. Then find the cheapest thing you can find that is safe to build time to 240 hours. Again, save your mone and do the commercial. You get the point?

It took me about 4 years from first flight to CFI while working another job, being married with kids, and paying the mortgage. It took me another 2 years to get a part time 135 job. Once I started flying for money, I did it part time while maintaining my other full time job. I still work part time in my old profession (less than 20 hours per week) because it pays well.

Bottom line is that you can do it, but you have to plan your work and work your plan to emerge on the other side victorious. Good luck!

By the way, I'm in a band too, but the pay is worse than entry level flying!

Wegs,

I haven't been on this board in a while, but I gotta jump in on this. You must remember one thing:

This job is not just flying. Just because you love flying does not mean you'll love being a professional pilot.

You need to talk to as many airline pilots as you can at the regionals about what their life is like. A flying job is not just flying whenever you feel like going to the airport, its staying at hotels, talking to your spouse on the phone, spending your family reunion alone in your hotel room in Minot, ND.

I would NEVER EVER suggest to anyone with a family to become an airline pilot from scratch unless they hate their family and want to be away as much as possible. Yes, it may be your dream, but it is almost definitely NOT what your family deserves. Don't be selfish.

over two years at mesa and I never got more than twelve days off as a line holder unless their was training or I dropped a trip along with the pay. That was mesa though.:D Also if on reserve you will never get more than the minimum of 11 days off a calender month.

I am still a youngster in the aviation community however, I am noticing the overall scheme of things in the aviation world.

I love to fly and being a 135 freight pilot, I love the type of flying that I do. That said, the question constantly in my mind is, "Is it all worth it?" I have always wanted to fly. Ever since grade school, I wanted to be a pilot however, I am wondering whether my love for flying is enough compensation to make it worth putting up with all of the crappy things about the job.

As opposed to the regionals, I am home every night at my home base and I have the weekends off. The other side of my schedule is I leave at 6:30am and return home around 9pm with a 6.5 - 8 hr layover in the middle of the day. Having the same days off every week is nice however, if you think about it, I only get 8 days off per month (sat + sun) x 4 weeks per month.

In addition to the aspects of my job, I also have a fiance who lives on the other side of the country. The fact that my job is M-F with only the weekends off, makes it impossible to commute across the country so i am forced to live away from my fiance and having done this for over a year now, I cannot wait for the day when I can live where I want (not on the other side of the country from her).

Now, given this situation, i keep telling myself it will be better when i get an actual airline job however, I am not sure if it will because i will just trade one set of annoying circumstances for another. I can deal with most of the bad aspects of the professional aviation industry because I love to fly however, (god willing) when I am married with two kids, a dog and a house somewhere, the ones who will suffer the most from my crappy job will be my family because they don't get anything out of it.

All in all, I feel your pain however, you really have to ask yourself, "Is it all worth it?" and no one else will know the answer but you!