snippercr

So I have a "student" who is interested in buying their own airplane. I say student because I more or less just give him BFRs and occasionally fly. He's been flying for quite a few years doing odd job stuff (but not career) and has finally hit retirement. He now wants to own his own airplane. I realized as an instructor, I now basically NOTHING about aircraft ownership.

We talked about FBO rental, clubs, fractional, etc and none of these seemed to fit what he wanted. His family owns a second house about 6 hour drive away and there is an airport literally across the street. They go up for weeks to months at a time so a club or something probably wouldn't work (and they want to fly around up there).

I have no idea what to tell him as far as yearly costs etc. Like what does a hangar cost, inspections and the like. I know how often inspections are required but dont know how much they cost. Also stuff like overhauls I don't know anything about. Finally, insurance. I have no idea how much that costs or what is required.

Actually I have been asked now by 2 students and I realized how painfully little I knew on this topic. Maybe because I never plan on owning one myself!

Any input would be great. Thanks.

de727ups

It's no big deal. You can get a nice Cessna 150 these days for 20K. 1K for the annual, .5K for insurance, it's not a big deal.

snippercr

Actually he is looking at a 210 or 310 so I am sure that will change things a bit. Especially if he goes with a 310 since everything is more or less doubled.

gestrich19

Like yourself, I hope to find this thread educational, but I would be cautious about giving a student any advice on aircraft ownership. I would not want to assume that liability for his decision. I have known quite a few people that regretted their decision to purchase an aircraft. I would tell him about the airplanes I've flown from a pilot perspective, but from a financial perspective, tell him to reach out to owners.

BoilerUP

The MOST important thing for someone looking at aircraft ownership, with no previous background, is "What is the typical mission we'd use the airplane for?" This is important so the potential buyer doesn't get too much or to little airplane. Mission includes length of trip (city pairs), average passengers & bags, length of runways, location of flying (ie do we need known ice), requirements to overfly large amounts of terrain and/or water, etc.

In addition to our CJ2+, we also operate a 2007 Cirrus SR22GTS that is owned by our company president. The SR22 is a very efficient traveling machine that could easily turn a 6 hour drive into a 1.5-2hr flight, and I'll try to inform you of costs associated with it.

With any airplane, you want to budget your per-hour direct operating costs to cover 1. fuel, 2. parts, 3. labor, and 4. engine reserve for overhaul. On top of that you add your fixed costs like 1. hangar, 2. insurance, 3. database updates & other subscriptions, etc.

Depending on how high you fly and how hard you push the engine, fuel burns can vary from 12gph to 20gph in the SR22. I like to fly high (10-12k) and at those altitudes 170kt and 13.1gph is fairly common. With 81gal usable in the G1 or G2-era SR22, you can see about 5 hours of endurance with a 45-60min reserve on the back end.

Annuals on our airplane run in the $2-3k ballpark, but they have the potential to go higher. There's lots of "little" stuff Cirrus recommends for this airframe that isn't required and can add expense. I don't remember what TCM says for the IO-550, but $30k for overhaul is a safe bet for budgetary purposes.

Insurance is the Achilles heel of the SR22, because so many people do dumb things flying them. We pay mid-$6k per year for about $400k hull and $1M event/$100k per person liability...but then again we've got 6 named pilots (4 ATPs, 1 with IFR and 1 non-IFR PPL). Its almost impossible to secure insurance on a SR22 without an instrument rating, at ANY price.

Depending on location, expect a hangar to run $200-400/mo for a Cirrus, possibly more.

Also consider the cost of the XM subscription ($50/mo, IIRC), Jepp Charts ($1200/yr, I think) and Garmin databases ($1200-2000, somewhere in that ballpark).

2005-2007 SR22s typically have ask prices in the $250-315k range right now. Of course, for that kind of money one could easily get a Cessna 182/210, Piper Dakota or Saratoga, F33A or A36 Bonanza, Mooney M20K, etc. (if any of those meet the mission requirements) and still have money left over for paint/interior/avionics upgrades and cover hangar/insurance/fuel for a couple years.

If he were interested in something of the Cessna 172 or Archer variety, he could probably have a very nice airplane, easy to insure and ready to fly for well under $100k.

DWN3GRN

The 172 is a great first owner(Student)bird. Pretty much maintenance free. Just add oil, cheap insurance. (It's a high-wing no fuel pumps to fail, gravity fed)
You can knock out 3 ratings (Pvt, Inst, Comm) then sell it for what you bought it for. That's what I did, of course that was back in 95'. Good luck.

Ewfflyer

How'd you do your Comm in a 172? Was it a single-eng add-on to a MEL-COM?

Bang-for-Buck, any C310 isn't a bad buy, but you have to ask yourself why they are so cheap for the performance.

Basically, this is a project I'm actually having our intern work on, we gave him an average distance range, pax load, bag-load, and price-range to operate within. This kid tried and failed horribly his first attempt, so we're walking him along this time, starting with the available aircraft out there. Controller.com was the starting point because you can get a quick grasp of what is even out there, and then we started the process of elimination.

Blueskies21

My favorite aviation answer; it depends. How much things cost depend on lots of factors. When I owned an airplane, it was in the midwest so most of the costs are on the lower end compared to the northeast or west. Where I lived, ramp fees were 50.00 a month, an open hangar was 100, an enclosed hangar ranged from 220-330 for a single, the higher side of those hangers could also fit a twin such as a 310. Some other costs, a vfr transponder inspection was 100.00 and a IFR transponder/ pitot static certification was 175.00. An annual is a big question mark, it depends alot on the mechanic you choose and the condition of the aircraft. I had annuals on a light single from 400.00-6000.00. The more expensive one had 2 cyclinders replaced at about 1100 a piece. Even counting that, you can see that the price varies alot. In my case originally I just went to whatever mechanic seemed like a good one. Later I discovered an older mechanic who was doing it more for a hobby, I'd work with him to keep him company and traded him some flight instruction time. That's how I kept the cost down later. I also trusted his work more than any other mechanic and knew my aircraft much better.
Aircraft parts are downright expensive, take what you'd pay for a similar car part and multiply it by somewhere between 5-10. For example, an alternator for your car you'll pay something like 60-100 bucks, an alternator for an airplane you're going to pay somewhere between 300-600 depending on the alternator.
As for insurance, I paid something like 700-900 a year for a 30k hull. Here again that depends on lots of variables, this was a fixed gear tricycle airplane. You'll pay more for a retract single and my buddy who had a 310 paid more like 6000 on a 50k hull, so it goes up fairly significantly to a twin.
Somebody else already said it, but he needs to identify his mission. I'm not a huge believer in flying a multi just for the heck of it. Unless he has a reason for that you're just unneccesarily increasing all the costs, bigger hanger, higher insurance, more expensive annuals, and two engines to care for and feed.
If you have any other questions, I can try to fill you in on some more of the costs. I can also suggest that he join the owners group for whatever plane he's attempting to buy before he buys one, so that he can figure out what sort of issues he's going to be looking for, as well as the subtle difference between model years. Some research now can save him alot of headache later on AD's and general issues that should have been complied with already.

rickair7777

My default answer would go with an ASEL. For a family-transport mission of a few hundred miles there are only a few circumstances which would justify the numerous drawbacks of a twin...

The need to fly long legs over water, or mountainous terrain under night / IMC, would justify a twin in my mind. Bu unless there is water involved, you could save a bunch of money and risk by sticking to to day VFR, especially with the familia on board.

Twins drawbacks relative to ASEL ...
Double+ Mx costs.
Double Fuel Costs.
More than Double+ insurance costs for most non-pro pilots.
Significant operational risk unless the pilots stays VERY proficient with single engine ops.
More things to break...reduced dispatch reliability.

Most non-pro pilots are safer doing a day VFR off-airport landing in an ASEL than dealing with a Vmc cut in a loaded-up twin.

snippercr

Thanks guys, a lot of this stuff we did talk about, especially the twin vs single. He actually has considerable twin time although it was mainly "normal" flying and not training flying. IE, all systems worked and no engine failures. He also has considerable instrument time.

The one thing that I did try to sell him on and he agrees is an aircraft with known-ice. They want to be able to fly in the winter time IFR. Obviously I stressed the known-ice in a light single/twin is not to fly IN icing conditions, but to fly THROUGH it and get to clear air and even then it's not always the best practice.

I think the main thing that he would want a twin over a single is just useful load. He said he would want to be able to easily carry himself + 4 pax and some luggage. A 210 might be able to do that while a 310 would be able to do it better.

Thanks for the info regarding insurance and inspections. Again, I know all about how often these inspections are required (teach it to every new student) but didn't know how much they cost.