Originally Posted by NoyGonnaDoIt

We're apparently looking at two different things. The (e)(iv) I'm looking at does says COMM or ATP with the category and class as a condition of logging PIC under that provision:

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commercial or airline transport pilot certificate and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft being flown
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Originally Posted by Twin Wasp

It says a COMM or ATP and (for our example) an AMEL. It does not say a COMM or ATP with an AMEL. So if you held a COMM Helicopter and PVT AMEL you would 1) hold a COMM or ATP and 2) have the category and class rating.

It is really bad when 1.3 needs to include with and and.

Originally Posted by NoyGonnaDoIt

I see your point. Given how the Chief Counsel has interpreted similar verbiage I'd be surprised if they saw it that way (I've been surprised before ). But I definitely see your point.

Originally Posted by Twin Wasp

If you read the NPRMs in the Federal Register when they come out and the Final Rules when published you get the background of what the Feds were thinking. Even then converting it to real world useful information can be daunting task.

Originally Posted by NoyGonnaDoIt

Most of what people think of as gray areas have had clear answers for years and the problem is not vagueness of the regs but education of the pilot (note all of the arguments about logging PIC time that have been clarified for 30 years). The ones that are truly vague are in a surprisingly small group considering that writing this stuff is primarily a human process (***brief pause for lawyer joke***.

Originally Posted by Bellanca

I have been told that the regs have changed in the 2011 FAR's regarding being able to log PIC time while with an instructor and logging dual received.

To make a long story short, I recently started renting a plane from a local FBO and beginning my CFI training (part 61). When I've gone on a couple of flights in their 172 to get checked out and learn to fly from the right seat the CFI refused to let me log it as PIC. He said due to a change in the regs only one person can log PIC - either me or him - and since he was logging it as PIC I am unable to do so. In the past I was always taught that as long as I was rated and had the proper endorsements both myself and the CFI could log the flight as PIC.

I decided to look it up in the regs for myself which left me even more confused. I found that there were indeed some changes to 61.51, but it seems vague whether logging PIC while with an instructor is allowed or not in my situation.

New regs:

(iv) When the pilot performs the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a qualified pilot in command provided—
(A) The pilot performing the duties of pilot in command holds a commercial or airline transport pilot certificate and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft being flown, if a class rating is appropriate;
(B) The pilot performing the duties of pilot in command is undergoing an approved pilot in command training program that includes ground and flight training on the following areas of operation—
( 1 ) Preflight preparation;
( 2 ) Preflight procedures;
( 3 ) Takeoff and departure;
( 4 ) In-flight maneuvers;
( 5 ) Instrument procedures;
( 6 ) Landings and approaches to landings;
( 7 ) Normal and abnormal procedures;
( 8 ) Emergency procedures; and
( 9 ) Postflight procedures;
(C) The supervising pilot in command holds—
( 1 ) A commercial pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate, and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category, class, and type of aircraft being flown, if a class or type rating is required; or
( 2 ) An airline transport pilot certificate and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category, class, and type of aircraft being flown, if a class or type rating is required; and
(D) The supervising pilot in command logs the pilot in command training in the pilot's logbook, certifies the pilot in command training in the pilot's logbook and attests to that certification with his or her signature, and flight instructor certificate number.


Part B says that the 'student' must be "undergoing an approved pilot in command training program," so does this mean a 141 or other formal training program where an FAA approved syllabus allows the time to be logged as PIC? So therefore because I'm informally training (just learning to fly from the right seat, and practicing maneuvers), not necessarily even finishing my rating with this CFI or at this location, does that mean I cannot log the time as CFI?

Then part D says the supervising pilot in command (CFI in my case) certifies the PIC training in the logbook. Could this mean that it is up to the CFI's discretion whether to let me log it as PIC or not? Is this a place where a CFI could potentially 'screw' (for lack of a better word) students out of PIC time?

What are other CFI's doing and how do you interpret that? And is there an official interpretation showing that someone like myself that is somewhat informally working on a rating can log that time as both PIC and Dual Received? (I realize that the airlines and other employers may not actually 'count' this time as PIC, and I'm not worried about that at the moment, I'm just concerned with the legality of logging the time as PIC with the apparent change in regs). Or is there a different part of the regs other than 61.51 that makes logging this time illegal now according to the 2011 regs?

Originally Posted by NoyGonnaDoIt

BTW, FWIW, I think you should be a little concerned about CFI instruction from an instructor who has a poor grasp of the rules dealing with training and what may le logged toward certificate and rating requirements. Hopefully, his instruction is strong in other areas and you know how to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Originally Posted by rotorhead1026

I think Bellanca is referring to the "supervised PIC" provision. I don't have FAR's handy either (yeah, another lame excuse ), but this was set up to allow a primary student getting his first license in a multiengine f/w airplane to log "solo" time, IIRC. (No insurance company would sign off on "real" solo). 61.129 (b) (4)