Costs
 

Hey,
how come most Commercial Licences cost up to 40 or 50k? As far as I know you fly as a student the first halgf year. But in the second year you operate as an instructor and earn between 15 and up to 35$/ h. So if I fly 500 hours as an instructor I'd earn 17.500$. So how come I have to pay up to 40.000$ for a licence? How can I spend 40k in one year?

depends on what the program offers.. some offer tons of multi time at $225 a pop, which can quickly add up... others offer transitional courses to set you up for the airlines...
i know there are some guys here that are from ATP and ERAU, but my personal advice is to fly at a small flight school.. more one on one time, avaibility, and generally good prices...

I would recommend against FBOs - from my experience they don't give you a set price / set timeframe that ALL ATP can. I have had a few bad experiences with them...They give estimates and that can quickly add to the price.

ATP is my choice of schools to attend. I just like their product (FAA tickets - all you'll ever need in aviation, fixed price, fixed timeline, ME time as a student, CFI opps after you finish, lots of locations to choose from as a student / CFI with them) and have heard good things about them from CFIs to 121 / corporate / fractional CAs/ FOs.

No one shoe fits all. I recommend researching the options and deciding which is best for you. There are plenty of folks on board that will answer any questions you have.

-LAFF

Look into part 141 schools. They have a set syllabus, and you don't have to have 250hrs to get a commercial through 141. I had 199hrs when I got my commercial.

@LAFrequentFlyer: Could you tell me how you paid for your commercial? Could you also give me a link to the ATP?

@Zach: With those 199 hours you got your commercial. But to become a pilot at an airline you'll need some 1000 hours, don't you?

And: If you say a licence costs 40.000$, are those 17.500$ I'd make as an instructor included or excluded? What I mean is if I pay for my licence and I operate as an instructor I'd get up to 17k. So at the end I actually "just" pay 23k.

ANd: Is a degree necessary to be accepted as a pilot at an airline?

Thanks in advance

4 year degree at majors i BELIEVE in standard.. the airlines link may help you answer that

I know a few pilots at the majors without a college degree, but that is NOT the norm. They "fell" into their jobs some other way. You will need a degree to be competitive. I got my Master's degree for that reason.

Thats why Im working on becoming a flight instructor, which requires very little additional flying, just a lot of ground work. Once I am a flight instructor, I will be the one getting paid to fly.

The majors prefer a degree, and there is quite a bit of competition, so yes.

So you pay up to 30.000$ in one year to become a CFI. Then for about a year you fly as a CFI, instruct new students and earn up to 30$/ hour. That makes 17.000$ (at ~500 hours) you earn that second year. So in the end you have a bill of 30.000$ in the first year - 17.000 in the second year wich makes 3.000$ total after two years?

Can you guys affirm that for me?

I currently live in Germany, went to and finished school here and plan to move back to the states because I failed the Lufthansa qualification test. So before moving to another country I need to plan everything through in every detail (I am half American, half Australian - so moving to the states would be no problem).

Sorry to hear about your failure with Lufthansa.

www.allatps.com

I don't have a commercial. I have a PPL - completed with a lot of BS at local FBOs. Most of that was my own fault for not being educated about the aviation world.

I paid for my PPL while on active duty out of pocket.

-LAFF

There are some great local FBO's, but you do need to avoid the bad. Any business exists just to take your money. That's why they are there. Just be sure to get something for your money.

When you weight the pro/cons of going to ATP (ME time, fixed price, etc...) to that of an FBO (however honest the owner) ATP comes out ahead.


I agree - businesses exist to take money. Why not get the most for your money , at a fixed price, with a good outlook for a CFI job logging ME time if you are flexible.

-LAFF

I'm not going to say go to the mom and pop, but definately look at your different FBO's that are available. Try to find someone that has a set 141 schedule which will allow you to train with slightly lower mins.

PPL - 35 hrs vs 40 hrs in part 61
Inst. - 35 hrs vs. 40 hrs in part 61
Commercial - 190 hrs vs. 250 hrs part 61.

The thing you have to remember is that those are simply minimum times and it takes a special and dedicated person to get things done in that short of a time period. particularlly the private, the instrument is definately do-able, and the commercial is also, as long as you stick to your guns. There's also a rule that states you have to have atleast 120 hrs devoted purely to your commercial flight training, which would make sense given that 190 - the 70 hrs for pvt/inst would equal 120 hrs of commercial.

As far as how much things cost, national average for a private pilots license is still around 70 hrs of flight time. But we'll call it 50 becuase you'll be the "motivated" and "intelligent" student who can "fly".

instrument should be doable in 40 hrs, most are ready for a checkride w/ 30 hrs of hood time, and the last few are done to meet requirements, so we'll say it happens in 40.

then another 120 hrs for your commercial, maneuvers typically will take you the better part of 40 hrs to master, along w/ being fully comfortable in the complex airplane (normally only takes about 10 hrs). You also have 50 hrs of X-Country flying that must be done, so that works out to 90 hrs total and you'll have an additional 30 hrs to get even more profecient at doing maneuvers.

If you're doing this part 141 for the lower mins, you'll be forced to do the majority of the flying w/ an instructor (minus that last 30 hrs you'll need...so, you're looking at 160 hrs of dual) average price of a skyhawk is about $110/hr instructor costs are probably about $30/hr which would work out to $140/hr for 160 hrs or...$22,400.

You'll still have a minimum of 30 hrs that "can" be solo (it may or may not be) so that would be at $110/hr or $3,300

which would be a total of $25,700...to be safe, i'd round it up another $5000 to an even $30,000 which, if you're dedicated and lucky, key on the LUCKY it could happen for that price.

When that's finished, you'll need to get your CFI (certified flight instructor) which will take more ground time than flight time, a little bit of flying is done to get your comfortable in the other seat. But the vast majority is learning how to teach maneuvers, you'll be amazed at how well you'll have to know something in order to actually teach, CFI will cost around $1000-$2000.

I started instructing in Jan. of 06 and acquired about 300 hrs of flight time in 8 months. Not terrible, but not outstanding either. For each hour of flight there was probably an hour or more of ground. However, i didn't get rich instructing. The reason, most companies (in my case a university) that will guarentee you students every semester (and lots of students for that matter) won't pay that much. so whlie instruction costs $30/hr, the actual CFI will see between $8.50/hr - $17.50 hr depending on experience.

Best of luck w/ your choices, and hope this helps you with your decesions.

That's crazy! I live in Germany too and am half American/ half German though. I'm probably going to move back to the States after finishing school here without trying the Lufthansa opportunity. Of course it's a great company but I actually want to live in the USA rather than in Germany. Where do you live here? You will have to have a degree to be competitive in the States so you have to think about where to study as well! That's the thing I'm looking at more right now. Some of the guys here on these forums have given me some very good hints so I will probably be looking closer at attending a university with an aviation program. Try reading all you can. There is so much information out there. I'm learning tons here every day. Most people you meet researching are really nice so you will probably have fun reading here and talking to people. Pilot's are great people who help you out a lot. I can't wait to belong to that superb group of people (I hope I can be nice too then and help others out). I wish you the best of luck!

greetz, Jakob (I live in Hamburg by the way...)

Hey, I live in Düsseldorf. Hamburg is one of Germany's nicest cities I reckon.
I am looking at different opportunities. I might go to Uni in Bremen or Dresden (where university is still for free) and get a degree in FLugzeugsystemtechnik or something.
I gonna come up to Hamburg pretty soon again with my girlfriend ;-)

See ya

Ah, I see. Yeah, Hamburg is a nice city although personally I like Munich alot too. Have fun while you're here!;) Good luck for you in your career!
cya

www.prairieairservice.com

PS: At Flynavyj: Thanks for your info. That's exactly what I was looking for. So you had to pay 22k in one year (?) and now you're a CFI earning up to 17,5$/ h. That makes 5.250$ in those eight months/ 300 hours.

What I want to know is that if you got your CFI after spending about 20k you could work as a CFI for a lil more than two years and get back all the money you spent to get your CFI, right? So actually those 22.000$ investement are to be returned to you when working as a CFI.

@Jakob: I don't like Munich. To conservative over there ;) I like Hamburg, Düsseldorf, Dresden.

actually, no...I started flying in 2001 in college, got my CFI in december of 2005.

Depending on how motivated you are, and how good the weather is where your located you can normally finish private in about 4-6 months of hard dedicated flying. You'd then do your instrument (if you are following a 141 sylabus, if not, you'd have to start building 50 hrs of x-country time) the instrument rating should take approximately 40 hrs of simulated/actual instrument time which will work out to approximately 6 months again.

Your commercial typically takes a little longer, you'll have to get those 50 hrs of x-country time to get your commercial, if you do this part 61, you'll need that 50 hrs of x-country to get your instrument also, which is why it can be done either before or after depending on the sylabus. i'd give yourself 8 months to a year on your commercial certificate. After that's all done, you can get your CFI, or go get your multi-commercial certificate (which you'll need to work for an airline), it's a quickie though, taking between a week and a month depending on where you study.

Now, starting pay for a CFI can very depending on location.

I don't make $17.50/hr, wish i did.

my university starts CFI's at $8.50 / hr and raises are given in $1.00 incriments for each of the following:

College degree
CFII
MEI
100 hrs dual given
300 hrs dual given
500 hrs dual given
700 hrs dual given
900 hrs dual given
1200 hrs dual given

after that they stop,and expect you to leave...:p

Ah okay. And can you (could I) work as a flight instructor or "pilot-teacher" as a main occupation? If I wouldn't want to fly for an airline but teach students to fly (on private planes) or do ordinary CFIs take over that part at all? How would be the salary anyway?

little confused as to what you're asking. You'll have to be a CFI to teach in the US anyway, so you will be an "ordinary" cfi...it can be done as a living, plenty of people are doing it. Just find a place that you can get a good inflow of students to keep you occupied. Typically, a freelance CFI who has a good student flow can earn around 30-35k/year. If more interests you, continue getting your instructor ratings and apply to be an Designated FAA examiner. those guys, can make bank.

Thanks, you fully answered my question again :)
Being a CFI for living was the word-combination I was looking for. Do you know how the demand is currently? 35.000$ sounds quite okay for a while. How much do FAA examiners make a year?

Don'tnobody know? Hm, okay...

30-35k is for a freelance instructor. you won't be making that much unless you happen to have alot of friends that want lessons. you will be working for a flight school, and depending where in the country you live, how much you answer the phones, how aggrsive you are in getting walk-ins, how busy your actual school is.. blah blah blah, will depend on how much you earn. you can become a specialized instructor, like cirrus or mooney or g1000, and make more. But generally, being an instructor isn't too finacially rewarding. But you learn a whole heck of alot about flying. I'm actually wanting to become an instructor part time and hold a day job so that I can get compensated for something I love to do, instead of paying $100/hr.

Just like anything else, it depends on how busy they are. It is not uncommon for CFI's to go "examiner shopping" to get a favorable "environment" for a student. This means that some examiners are busier than others.

I am not aware of any examiners in my area that dont have other, full time jobs in addition to being an examiner. I suspect that the examiners in busy places like Florida might be different.

How do you wanna manage being a flight instructor and working somewhere else at the same time?