At a junction
 

Not sure if this is in the right heading, but...

I am at a point I need to make a decision. I have decided that, even after the nay-sayers and tales of the 'dark side' of the profession, I am pursuing my dream of being a commercial pilot. Here is my conundrum: I am 28. From a divorce I have some bad debt and am only half-way to my PPL ticket. I work two jobs and have figured if I devoted all my spare income (after bills), I could obtain all my ratings, including CFI in two years, or pay all the debt in two years. If I combined them, both would be done in 4. My question is this: is it better at my age to get my ratings as quickly as possible and work on the debt afterwars (my hunch), do both, or do the debt first and then the flying? I understand having no debt is key to starting in this profession, so it feels like a toss-up to me. Advice welcome. Thanks!!

Not to be the dark cloud here, but given you're age and a lifestyle that you are probably accustomed to, be prepared to rack up more debt as you progress toward a major career. I'm sure you already know this; your earnings will be near the poverty line as you build time through flight instructing. They will also be near our below the poverty line for the first year, possibly the second as well as you fly for a regional. Then when you are finally ready and have the time to progress to the majors, guess what? Another major pay cut.
I would say get the ratings first if you can't be talked out of this career. time is not on your side. I would think long and hard about starting into this at your age (no offense). You have YEARS to go until you're at a major, probably close to a decade. Please don't buy into the pilot shortage hype going on, that happens every 5 years or so in the news yet never seems to materialize.

Tough call, but i would probably tackle the debt first, especially if you are interested in airlines.

Many airlines look at your credit history, and use that as one of many screening factors to attempt to identify and eliminate reckless, irresponsible individuals.

Now don't started about how unfair that is, everyone knows that there are ways for regular people to have debt problems, especially lately (housing market, job loss, divorce, medical emergency, etc). The problem is that the airlines ABSOLUTELY DO NOT CARE AT ALL about giving everyone a fair shot (unless you are not a white male). All they care about is the easiest and cheapest way to eliminate as many bad apples as possible. Credit, DUI, driving record, criminal record, employer disciplinary history are all examples of things they look for.

If you just have a lot of debt but your credit score and history is OK, then I wouldn't worry too much. But if you have a lot of hits and a low score, I would suspect that you would want to clean that up before you start applying to airlines.

You won't be THAT broke as a CFI. Guys at rating factory 141 schools are earning around 30k. Also don't forget, there are many more options than just becoming a 121 cockpit drone.

Sure 28 might be a little late to start chasing the left seat of a 747 but there are plenty of other career options out there as a pilot where your QOL won't depend so much on a company seniority number.

What kind of flying are you hoping to get into?

You really think it's such a young man's game? I would think if you had your debts under control, all your flight tickets, college, and maybe 1,500 hours total time you could shoot for a heavy jet goal at up to maybe 50 years old but I am not sure. I would not do it. The bigger question in my mind is at 50 would I be able to accept crappy right seats at low paying airlines, put up with moving every 3 years, and be so enamored of a heavy jet that I would do all this on a shoestring budget and no hope of retirement. Given all that, perhaps the reasonable cutoff age is mid-thirties at this point in time. If I had a 20-year-old son I would tell him no way should you go into airline work, unless other options are simply off the table.

I am aiming more for the Part 135 Charter side of the industry. I'm a ramp rat now and I get fired up everytime a X or Falcon 2000 lands. Granted I know the odds of making it THAT side are probably slimmer than the right seat of an RJ; if my goal were the majors I think my decision would be clearer...I suppose I have the idea 135 would be easier to get into down the road. I'm also curious if A&P would be a smarter way to go and fly as a hobby.

Well, lets work out some times here:

Age 35- Pass CFI check ride, instruct for two years.

Age 37- hired at regional.

Age 44 - hired at major

Age 60 (going off UAL, DAL, AA average) - upgrade to captain in the smallest fleet type.

Age 65- retire.

It doesn't seem possible to me to jump from Capt in smallest type to the largest in 5 years.

PC12Luvr, if you are fully committed to chasing a career as a pilot then I say get your ratings and flight time AS SOON AS POSSIBLE! If this means taking out a loan do it, just make sure you make those payments on time.

Also, you will see and hear all about how regional pilots "live in poverty" but since you are already working two jobs and say it will take you 2 years to scrape up the cash to reach the CFI level I'm assuming you're already used to barely getting by. 3 years at the average regional and a guy will be making close to 40k. I can't speak from your perspective but compared to my $9.60 an hour job driving a delivery truck, 30-40k might as well be a million. And that quickly jumps up into the 50 and 60k range (if you don't get furloughed).

It seems to me like most of the pilots complaining about low regional wages started their 747 captain lifestyles while they were still sitting right seat in a Saab. If I had a stay at home wife, two kids, a mortgage, a BMW payment and a 60 inch flat screen I would be ****ed about regional pilot pay too!

You are the wet dream of an airline recruiter and contract negotiator. Good luck with you career.

:)

Perhaps I should clarify my judgement: I am not ignoring the wisdom I greatly appreciate from you folks. I am under no illusions of a fabled shortage nor that flying is an excellent, no-complaints, get-rich profession. I simply believe that, while an engineering career is satisfying, I would regret not giving flying a shot. If my odds are so stacked against, than I will gladly walk away, "do something else and fly on the weekends." Thank you all for your insight.

Hey I'm almost 40. Also was an engineer for a living. Been teaching for a long time and always wanted to give 121 a shot. Well I finally did and I really enjoy it. If you don't get caught up with the politics and try to live in base, it's very doable. I was also torn with the A&P route, but ultimately decided I couldn't make that kind of time commitment. It is certainly not to late to get in the game. Realize that a lot of corporate jobs are more a who you know type of thing so start networking now while you work those ratings. Good Luck.

Just so we don't confuse anyone...

Engineer? What you didn't say is that you probably had your debt under control (or paid off), enough savings to see you through CFI/regional years, and probably a large retirement nest-egg. Maybe some rental property too?

I was in a similar boat, and airlines have worked OK for me so far, but that doesn't mean I would recommend it for a 30 y/o who doesn't have his finances well in order.

I think you will walk away if you really know what you are getting into. I do engineering and I am not under any illusions about how much fun it is. While it is one of the better white collar jobs, I still eat a lot of crap most weeks. But I am convinced you will eat far more crap as a right seat pilot at almost any airline.

As an engineer I was able to recently buy a $4,000 musical instrument for the fun of it- a lifelong dream. That would never happen on FO airline pilot salary. Yet I have the money to fly twins whenever I want to for fun. I flew a Seneca for two hours today over an airshow in Winston Salem, NC. That would never happen on an regional FO salary, guaranteed. Who is really having fun here? I am not bragging, just trying to put the two jobs in perspective. You are crazy to fly for a living unless you can make it to a major very fast or your livelihood does not depend on flying.

That is the goal. Out of about 144,600 ATPs in the US 70,000 or so of them, roughly 50% are flying at well paying cargo, legacy, and major carriers. And this isn't counting the thousands of US contract pilots flying over seas in China, Japan, etc. earning substantial salaries. How crazy they all were to believe they could make it in this business.

Cubdriver is right, better cut your losses now and forget about it because you, I, and every other aspiring career pilot will never be one of them.

It all depends on how you live I guess. Might be a little tight for a first yr FO agreed, but come on upgrades at regionals don't take that long.

I don't know anything about the current climate in this economy for someone with an engineering degree so I can't compare the two. If you enjoy it enough and are confident you can easily land a job with high starting pay then I suppose you should go for it but don't let yourself become overly discouraged when it comes to the opportunities available out there for a competent pilot.

BF

You might poll that 70,000 and see how many recommend an aviation career to you or their sons/daughters. I'd bet it is a minority.

RJ F/Os are getting on 7-8 years before upgrading to CA. It is slow going.

GF

I do not challenge the claim that maybe 70,00 pilots work for major airlines. That's not far off. But, not all those people make such great money working for that major airline, and by your own claim this statistic means 50% will NOT work for one of the majors and you know what that means (low paying regionals). That's not very good compared to engineering. You also neglect to mention the heavy additional costs of getting pilot ratings plus and the extra years of low wages involved in getting there. You also skipped over the not-so-little things like not getting home daily as a quality of life issue, fairly high risk of furlough, risk of losing a medical, and the overall competitive nature of the major airline jobs. I'll pass on it. I am not opposed to someone wanting to do it if they so choose, but they had better know what a long-shot it is and how they are more likely to get stuck at a regional than get a well paid major airline job. Your chances of success are better in engineering.

Due to the nepotism at most of the majors the sons and daughters (especially daughters!) of airline pilots would be foolish not to go for it.

8 years to El Capitán? What am I missing here? I see at Skywest it should be around 5 years to upgrade and making 60k; American Eagle, 4 years and about 60k. $5,000 a month doesn't seem that bad for a 20 something yr old, or even a 30 or 40 something yr old for that matter.

Say for whatever reason, you don't make it to a major and are faced with the apparent "worst case scenario" according to many; stuck at a regional. Well aww darn, that means your pay will only cap out around $100,000; Shoot, I guess you'll never make it out of the projects.

Yes, there is a cost to getting your pilot ratings but when you put it all in perspective I wouldn't call the cost heavy. You should be able to go from PPL to CFI with under $20k. + 3 for the MEI and make it $23,000 approx. Now let me add the fact that the only educational req for the regionals is a HS diploma. What does an engineering degree cost at a reputable university? Double that at least.

Furloughs are scary, but what job is immune to a slow economy? Layoffs happen in a free market economy. As for the competitive nature of the biz, tell me what job I can safely apply for with no risk of rejection or competition from others.

Loosing your medical; I agree, this risk is unique to pilots. All one can do is try their best to stay healthy I guess. Living out of hotels half the month is a negative (more for some than others). No arguing with that.

I am not inside the airlines to know how much of an advantage nepotism is to offspring of pilots, but I doubt it is a done ticket to the parents airline. Maybe an interview, but far from a done deal.

Again I am not in the business enough to know what the average upgrade time is across all the airlines, regional included, but I hear it is possible to really get the shaft on this.

Yeah but that's my point, if you get stuck at a regional you probably would have done better at engineering and flying on weekends. But I will concede the point that for may people who can't obtain an engineering degree this might seem like and attractive option. I know several engineers who are in fact stuck at regionals and they have mixed opinions about it. They aren't doing what they thought they would be doing in the airlines. None is very happy with how things turned out.

Now you are really reaching. Many pilots come out of ALLATPs and many of the other schools with north of six figures debt and more. I also challenge the idea that going the FBO route is going to only cost $30k now, more like $50k. I admit I need to tally up the costs for all the tickets since the fuel went up a year or two ago, but it was around $50k even before the fuel was tacked on when I got all my tickets. And that does not include college, and if you go to the regionals without college you are stuck there from what I hear. So you need that $50k worth of state college and you need those $50k worth of FBO flight ratings if you are going to do it for the lowest cost. That's still six figures total. I known because I went to a state college and I did all my flight tickets through flying clubs, employee clubs, and FBOs.

I went to a world class engineering school on full scholarship and I still had a bunch of student loans to pay back for living expenses. I did not even pay tuition and came out with about $65k in debt. However, some of that was used for flight tickets so I am not sure how much was only due to that. You can look up on any college website how much it costs to go there. Coming out with north of 6 figures is common.

Yeah but airlines are notorious for up and down cycles, even more often than the larger economy. You run a large risk of getting furloughed at any airline.

Again, if a kid comes along and says airline pilot is for me I am all for it. It is a noble profession, rewarding for many, and crucial to the world we live in. But if the other options is engineering, I would caution anyone making such a decision. Engineering is at least as good an option and arguably a better one. Only if a kid said he hated engineering would I steer them to the airlines.

If an individual with at least average intelligence (maybe a little above) studies and learns as much as much he/she can on their own from FAA handbooks and home study guides without listening to a CFI merely repeat everything those books say at a $40 hr rate the ratings don't have to cost over 30k. I'd say most would find the estimations below fairly accurate if a student has enough determination. Prices below are current at my local airport (Pearson field in Vancouver, WA- KVUO):

PPL
C-152 for 40hrs @ $67hr wet = $2680.
CFI for 30hrs @ $40hr = $1200
books, written test, chk ride, flight supplies = approx $800
TOTAL = $4680

Instrument
C-172 for 30hrs @ 97hr wet = $2910
PCATD flight sim for 10hrs @ $20hr = $200
CFII for 25hrs* (15 in flight, 10 on the sim) at $40 = $1000

*Split the 30hrs with another inst. student. Each act as safety pilot for the other so you can each log simulated instrument without paying a CFII.

Microsoft flight simulator - unlimited hrs = $20 at Wal mart.
written test, chk ride, flight supplies = $700
TOTAL = $4830

Commercial

At this point you have 80TT and need 170 more for a comm.

160hrs in the 152 (include in this time the X-C reqs for the comm and try to get the commercial maneuvers down as well as you can on your own without a CFI to reduce instruction time) - $10,720

10 hrs in Piper Arrow @ 120hr = $1200
5hrs with CFI @ 40hr = $200
written, chk ride, flight supplies = 700
TOTAL = 12,820

CFI

10hrs with CFI = $400
10hrs in 152 = $670
two writtens (FOI and FIA) = $300
chk ride = $0
Total = $1370

MEI

20hrs in Twin Comanche at $230hr wet = $4600
23 hrs with MEI @ 45hr = $1035
chk ride = $400
TOTAL = $6035


GRAND TOTAL = $29,735

$23,000 was a bit of a stretch. Realistically this might be tough for most to pull off but it can be done. I'll agree with the rest of Cubdriver's last post.

With no degree you will be stuck at a regional but even that's not so horrible. Making 100k in your 40's (if you were hired in your 20's) is not bad at all in my opinion plus by the time you're that senior you will have any schedule you want. But again, I know nothing about the engineering field so I am in no position to say which choice would be better right now. All I can say is that I don't think pursuing an airline career is as crazy as most on here seem to make it out to be.

I think it boils down to what you want personally, combined with your options in terms of background, age, debt, and family. For a guy with no engineering degree, airlines is very attractive. For many with the degree it is something of an attraction for sure, many make the change to airlines, but I have clearly seen from personal friends as well as years of reading at APC that many tend to drop out (if they aren't laid off) when they find out what is really involved with regionals. I would say that almost all go back to engineering at least for a while when they get furloughed, even if they go back to airlines later because engineering bores them. The competition for jobs is a better deal in engineering than in airlines, because more people can make it through the training to get there. But engineering can be deathly boring as well, and for some the boredom is untenable. I have felt that way but I always dealt with it constructively and as it stands I am in a flight test department doing some rather interesting stuff, going home every night, and still making major airline pay. I fly mostly for fun on weekends, which is enough for me. It would be nice to fly heavy jets but you can't have everything.

Well I think you and I are the only ones left in here Cubdriver. Thanks for the opinions and quick replies. I enjoyed my "Maverick vs Viper" moment. Looks like a tough decision between the two careers for someone in pc12luver's situation.

Most of the threads in the Career Builder section die in 2-3 days. See ya next time around.

Well this thread definitely got a few visits from heavyweights, so a lot of us, at least me personally, liked reading what you guys were saying.. What can someone like me say about this topic when we are the ones asking advise.

All I can say is Pls keep it going & I believe some will definitely benefit from reading this......

I say do it as quick as possible and default the debt. It's only the American way of doing things. Banks will write it off.

Not a bad idea......

But wait.... Why default now...... Take more, finish all your ratings & then default on a much bigger amount.......

The first year regional pilot salary will easily qualify a person for a Chapter 7.....
Wipe your hands off & live debt free......

BC you are right on. Flying loans aren't government backed so those can be included in a chapter 7. Be an American and write it all off.

It will be more than 30K at a mom and pop flight school for sure. You will not find planes less than $95 an hour very easily and the instruction rates are on average now $50/hour. Just plan on $50K as a reasonable amount to get your ratings done and go from there. As an aside I'd rather have my debt taken care of before I jump off into regional pay.

Been out for a few days. Just read your replies, thank you! Your advice has been GREATLY appreciated and used. I think I have made my decision, and I have the wisdom of you folks to back it up. I agree with you cub and bearded that a better way is to keep flying a hobby. Plus, nothing says I can't instruct on the weekends with a 9-to-5er and still be associated with the industry. Thanks again guys!!! :)

A bit of a strech
 

I guess you will just have to try it I guess. While flying for Horizon Air I was a flight instructor in Vancouver WA and can say that getting all that for under 30K is a bit of a stretch. As far as 100K in the regionals in five years. I hope it works out for you however with your accounting slant I can understand how you might be able to convince yourself that you can earn that much.

Hope for the best but plan for the worst. I have seen a lot of guys come through APC with similar ideas only to end up in the "Career Changers" section a year or two later.

Skyhigh

After recently getting my CPL and working on CFI, I would say I am at a pretty big intersection with multiple traffic lights too. There are no guarantees in life. For those of us in training and would like to make it a profession, I think we should do ourselves a favor and just keep on building time and acquire ratings with minimal debt and smart life choices. Good luck!