FAA not accepting SIC time towards ATP min.
10-16-2011, 08:04 AM
#22
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Joined APC: Sep 2008
Position: B767
Posts: 1,900
Originally Posted by Phuz
Yea cuz 250 hours of flying a single engine cessna in circles around your local airport is really going to impact your ability to command a regional aircraft. Make no mistake, any F/O requiring additional hours will do exactly that, although it may be a piper cub instead of a cessna.
10-16-2011, 08:34 AM
#23
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Originally Posted by Tom a Hawk
This is an interesting predicament. To get their commercial they would have needed at least 50 hours of XC PIC and that is over 50 nm. the xc requirement for atp is just landing somewhere different from where you took off. They must have some of that from other times in their flying progression. So it cant be THAT much time.
As far as what the company will say/do....well that depends on the company and how many people you talk to in the company.
As far as what the company will say/do....well that depends on the company and how many people you talk to in the company.
When I first started instructing years ago I received a student from another instructor that was nearing his commercial checkride(pt. 61). We did a cross country and when we were doing his logbook after the flight he had more cross country time than I did!
10-16-2011, 08:44 AM
#24
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Posts: 278
Originally Posted by hc0fitted
D. Hours of PIC Cross-Country. At least 100 flight hours must have been accumulated as PIC while conducting cross-country flight. SIC hours while performing the duties of PIC under the supervision of a qualified PIC may be credited toward this requirement.
10-16-2011, 09:33 AM
#26
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It all depends on which examiner you talk to if you can get a ATP on your own. Each DE interprets the regs differently. Some will give you the atp with restrictions if you don't yet meet the 250 pic or 100 xc pic. Some will want a note signed by captains you've flown with saying: you have X hours under his supervision to meet the pic requirements to hold the atp with no restrictions. And some DE will just give you the atp as long as you are sic 121 with no kind of hassles. You got to find out who is in your area, and talk with them and worst case scenario come to an agreement on what to do. The FAA writes rules with gray interpretations, and each DE does whatever the heck they feel is right. Aviation is messed up in the USA.
10-16-2011, 10:36 AM
#28
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Posts: 278
Originally Posted by yancharlie
It all depends on which examiner you talk to if you can get a ATP on your own. Each DE interprets the regs differently. Some will give you the atp with restrictions if you don't yet meet the 250 pic or 100 xc pic. Some will want a note signed by captains you've flown with saying: you have X hours under his supervision to meet the pic requirements to hold the atp with no restrictions. And some DE will just give you the atp as long as you are sic 121 with no kind of hassles. You got to find out who is in your area, and talk with them and worst case scenario come to an agreement on what to do. The FAA writes rules with gray interpretations, and each DE does whatever the heck they feel is right. Aviation is messed up in the USA.
Last edited by hypoxia; 10-16-2011 at 10:48 AM.
01-28-2012, 05:18 AM
#29
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Posts: 442
Originally Posted by yancharlie
It all depends on which examiner you talk to if you can get a ATP on your own. Each DE interprets the regs differently. Some will give you the atp with restrictions if you don't yet meet the 250 pic or 100 xc pic. Some will want a note signed by captains you've flown with saying: you have X hours under his supervision to meet the pic requirements to hold the atp with no restrictions. And some DE will just give you the atp as long as you are sic 121 with no kind of hassles. You got to find out who is in your area, and talk with them and worst case scenario come to an agreement on what to do. The FAA writes rules with gray interpretations, and each DE does whatever the heck they feel is right. Aviation is messed up in the USA.
(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-
(i) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;
....as a way to use SIC for the required ATP PIC mins. Many argue that you must have a PIC type rating and not just an SIC type rating but these people can't prove it. Fact is, it just says "aircraft for which the pilot is rated". No one can just jump in the right seat of a CRJ without a rating. There is a difference with logging PIC and acting as PIC. Just because a guy with only an SIC type rating is logging PIC under this regulation doesn't mean he is acting as PIC or rated to act as PIC. He is rated to act as SIC and is allowed to log PIC when he is the sole manipulator of the controls for an aircraft he is rated in. Just like a student logging PIC while doing a dual commercial lesson with his instructor who is also logging PIC and is the designated PIC for the flight.
Basically I'm saying this regulation does not specify PIC type rating or SIC type rating so to say you need a PIC type would just be making up words that aren't actually in the regulation. Thus making you wrong to assume something like that.
Last edited by CrakPipeOvrheat; 01-28-2012 at 05:41 AM.
01-28-2012, 06:33 AM
#30
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Posts: 90
Originally Posted by CrakPipeOvrheat
I have been researching and this is what I have found too. At first I was uncomfortable with using SIC time toward the ATP PIC requirement because I talked to one guy at my FSDO and they said people who do that are getting their ATP illegally. Some DPE's interpret...
(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-
(i) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;
....as a way to use SIC for the required ATP PIC mins. Many argue that you must have a PIC type rating and not just an SIC type rating but these people can't prove it. Fact is, it just says "aircraft for which the pilot is rated". No one can just jump in the right seat of a CRJ without a rating. There is a difference with logging PIC and acting as PIC. Just because a guy with only an SIC type rating is logging PIC under this regulation doesn't mean he is acting as PIC or rated to act as PIC. He is rated to act as SIC and is allowed to log PIC when he is the sole manipulator of the controls for an aircraft he is rated in. Just like a student logging PIC while doing a dual commercial lesson with his instructor who is also logging PIC and is the designated PIC for the flight.
Basically I'm saying this regulation does not specify PIC type rating or SIC type rating so to say you need a PIC type would just be making up words that aren't actually in the regulation. Thus making you wrong to assume something like that.
(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-
(i) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;
....as a way to use SIC for the required ATP PIC mins. Many argue that you must have a PIC type rating and not just an SIC type rating but these people can't prove it. Fact is, it just says "aircraft for which the pilot is rated". No one can just jump in the right seat of a CRJ without a rating. There is a difference with logging PIC and acting as PIC. Just because a guy with only an SIC type rating is logging PIC under this regulation doesn't mean he is acting as PIC or rated to act as PIC. He is rated to act as SIC and is allowed to log PIC when he is the sole manipulator of the controls for an aircraft he is rated in. Just like a student logging PIC while doing a dual commercial lesson with his instructor who is also logging PIC and is the designated PIC for the flight.
Basically I'm saying this regulation does not specify PIC type rating or SIC type rating so to say you need a PIC type would just be making up words that aren't actually in the regulation. Thus making you wrong to assume something like that.
I'm think you're confusing an "SIC type rating" with a real type rating- it's just not. Actually, anyone can jump in the right seat and fly as an SIC, without the "SIC type rating", you do not need this like you would a real type rating.
This formality was recently added within the past several years by the FAA for ICAO compliance for international travel, that's all, its just a paperwork technicality. So if you're not flying internationally (or have the potential to land at an airport in another country, like overflying Canada or something) you actually are fine to have a Commercial ticket with no "SIC type rating" (because it's not a true type rating).
I know that every FO out there has this "SIC type rating" but the truth is, you do not need any type rating to just sit right seat and fly as an SIC domestically in the US. The only reason they're issued is because of ICAO- you ONLY need it if you potentially will be going outside the US because ICAO requires it...and it's so easy to put on a certificate (since it's just paperwork, not a true rating) that most places just throw it on there.
If an airline application asks you to list the number of type rating you hold, are you really going to list that you hold "3 type ratings" just because you were an FO at a few regionals or something? A provision like the ICAO "SIC type rating" which has no real bearing in the US, has no practice test, and no written test associated with it, is just a formality for international regulatory compliance and is not something you can claim as qualifying you as "rated" on a plane requiring a type.
But hey, I could be wrong. Look into it, maybe I'm way off...but to me an "SIC type" means nothing, it's just your typical Commercial ticket with an ICAO stamp on it, for all intents and purposes- no real change in privileges from your commercial.
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