Is it worth it?
 

Hello, been a while since I've posted on here... I am currently an over the road truck driver in an attempt to save money for flight school. I am 24 years old with no degree right now. I understand I would need to get a degree to make it anywhere in aviation. My question is, is this worth it? I love aviation, have a strong passion for flying. But it seems like all I read about is how bad of a profession it is. I am also worried that maybe I am too far behind the power curve due to my age and no degree. Another option I am looking into is helicopters, I have several friends that fly helicopters for a living and understand that a degree is not typically required for a helicopter career. My background is 6 years military aviation with one year in Iraq. I was only in the guard but spent the majority of my time full time guard. I got in to go to flight school but was disqualified due to color vision. I do however hold a 1st class medical from the FAA(passed the color vision test no problem). What would you do in my shoes? Sorry for the long post, just wanted to ask for advice.

Hello. Your age and lack of a degree can be overcome with a bit more time. Your mil service has you a bit used to discomfort which is good. Class I passed-great.

The only cause for concern in your post is your question "Is it worth it?". Only you can determine whether it's worth it.

My advice to a young pilot starting out would be this.....do you NEED to do this? Because aviation will make life demands on you and everyone around you that will cause you to reevaluate the "worth" question frequently.

For me that question has always been yes but I can envision times that could change that. BTW, run from anyone who gives you "ironclad" career advice.

If you can answer that NEED question, you'll be on the right track. Best wishes.

I agree with the above post. What is worth it, is solely up to you. You can still knock out your ratings get a job , and finish your degree online. That's ht I am doing, it tough and takes dedication , but on long overnights while stuck in a hotel that's gives me a good amount of time to write
Essays etc. it is fully possible. The degree thing scared me as I need got mine, but I look back now it wasn't as bad as I thought .

That being said this forum is a good place to get some info , however this website is a place to gets lots of bad info !!!!!! There are a lot of haters on here that like to vent , which they have every right too. So take the words you read wisely .

Good luck ....

Nobody can tell you whether it's worth it or not.

Also the previous posters are incorrect...even YOU cannot determine whether it's worth it or not.

The capricious and unstable nature of the industry means that even you will not know whether it was worth it or not until it's over, or nearly over (age 55-60 with good seniority at a major.)

It's a gamble. But do yourself a favor anyway, get a degree.

"Also the previous posters are incorrect...even YOU cannot determine whether it's worth it or not."

Actually, the individual's judgement is the sole determinant of value. One man's trash is another man's treasure.

The financial instability is part of the calculation but not the whole enchilada. Do kids ask pilots at air shows about their 401k? The view from the window, the travel, the challenge of trying to fly a good airplane, working with the crew to get things done....these things have value, at least to me, even after 20 years.

If one can only determine the grand sum total of an aviation career after decades of experience based on the success or failure of things completely out of your control, I would advise getting an HVAC certification and making real money.

At the end of your career in aviation, you could be well off or flat on your ass financially. An agonizing question you may have at the end is "Would you have done anything differently?".

If you "needed" to be there, no agonizing required....go have another beer.:cool:

Massive investment
 

It is a massive investment with a very uncertain future.

Skyhigh

• He needs a college degree, bar none. He has to get that first. In something besides aviation.

Beyond that, I think we should advise kids like him to continue with their flight training for the time being, and take a cautious wait and see attitude about whether it will pan out. They can quit later if it seems not to. How else are they going to know if they are suited for aviation?

However, to plunge into flight school on the wings of a whopping loan- if they can even get one- is a terrible mistake. They should pay their way dollar for dollar. That gives them a clear idea how much cash is going into the cause as each rating is obtained, and brings cost into sharp relief.

But this kid is the right age to be asking this question and I hope he decides to pursue it. Pro aviation is a good career for a lucky few, and it always will be. The problem is for whom.

To the original poster....keep my username and Private Message me anytime. Pilots helping pilots is the name of the game here, and I personally have been the recipient of help from many APC members. Maybe I can pass along the favor.

You probably (hopefully) have been reading all sorts of threads on here. Generally speaking, things probably aren't as bad as all the complaining on here goes. But also, don't fall for glossy advertising or flight school propaganda. They are trying to SELL you something, and I am pretty sure most people on here are not trying to sell you something.

I would be wary of aviaton majors. If you do get an aviation major, my advice is to double major in something NON aviation. Shoot, there are good two year degrees with in demand skills.

Most higher level jobs will require a 4yr degree to be competitive(not sure how it makes a great pilot, but it is what it is). As mentioned before, a non aviation degree would benefit you more in the long run.

I would just say starting out, get a few of your ratings, hang out at the airport when you can, and just see it with your own eyes

Good luck

Sometimes the juice isn't worth the squeeze.

I too have a very strong passion for aviation like many if not most of the members here on the forums. I started flying at 23 years old right after I got my bachelor's degree. After 3 years I am now a CFI and loving every minute of it. I love the flying, there is absolutely no doubt of it. I am also glad and happy to be able to get paid for what I love the most. Having said that, I feel dreadfully uncertain about my future. I started a thread a week or so ago about ways to stay motivated. I found the answer. Just not think about the future too much and just concentrate on the present. My best advice to you is the following. You are still very young and use it as an advantage to get a 4 year degree. It might not mean much to you at this time, but believe me, it will open a lot more doors down the road whether you decide to pursue aviation or not. Especially if things didn't work out in aviation. Secondly, do not borrow any money for flying. And lastly, when you do start flying, take one hour at a time and truly try to enjoy every minute of it. Don't get stuck up in the future too much like I did, I don't recommend it. It is a risky investment, but for me, I am glad I made the choice. Good luck to you and hope you take to the skies in the near future.

Is it worth it? For me, absolutely. However, I or anyone else on these forums can't answer that question for you. Only you can decide that...

I'm a firm believer in the phrase "If you love what you do you never have to work a day in your life" Granted it is not quite that easy, but you get the idea, I'm not here to advise if its worth it, the others have done well enough on that subject.

As far as cost, if you have a year in Iraq under your belt, you should qualify for the post 9/11 GI bill benefits. I'm using it and so far I have attained my commercial, CFI and CFII along with about 300 hours (45 of it Multi) in just the last year, and now have 4 private students using the same benefit.

If you earned it, use it! It is by far the BEST college program the military has ever come up with, which leads me to believe it won't last long! PM me if you want more details, it's hard to turn down a degree, your ratings and E-5 BAH while your in school!! Check out a few threads down "Any recent veterans attending flight school", there looks to be alot of Ch33 benefit info in that thread also...

Wannabe:

As in most of life's greater pleasures and endeavors, follow your heart.

Rick is right in that you won't know if you made a good career decision ($) until the day you retire.

Hvydrvr is right that only you will know if it made you happy.

One thing that hasn't been addressed here: what is your end-game goal? If you are trying to get hired at a Major, I think your color-blindness may be a show-stopper, regardless of the Class 1. That is, an airline can have a higher standard than what is required by the FAA.

I'm not sure if that would be an impediment at a Regional or not...someone else will chime-in here who knows. I know it's a stopper for the military.

Smaller 135, Flight Schools, or Helo Operations would probably be OK with it.

With a realistic expectation, ask yourself what kind of flying job you would want to do, that could still provide for you and a family. Most guys make these decisions when they are single and childless; it's funny how it is never mentioned in the glossy ads for aviation schools......

And, I'd like to reinforce the advice to get a degree. Not an aviation degree, but something marketable during downturns. Same thing there: major in something you are interested in (heart), that could still be a viable living ($) for you and a family. You write exceptionally well for a guy with no degree. It suggests to me that college would be time easily and well-spent.

Good luck.

Just don't think about it?
 

So your advise is to "just not think about your future"? I wonder if drug addicts and bank robbers use the same approach? Your subconscious is trying to tell you something. I think you had better listen.

Lots of things are fun in life. It does not mean that it is good for you though.

Skyhigh

Yikes! If the steps to becoming a profressional pilot seem daunting, I might say it's like eating a really big steak...one bite at a time. The don't think about tomorrow thing shouldn't be taken to mean you should go to the expensive shiny jet university, because they told you that you will be making LOTS of money in the future, right? And the pilot shortage thing, too, I bet? Wrong. And the money thing will likely take AWHILE.

I know folks (yes, plural!) with six figure (or near six figs) debt from pursuing flying.. I would most definitely think about the future, I realize Pearl Pilot touched on that with the four year degree thing, but dang. Flying is great, but it literally can ruin you financially if you are not careful. Far too many people live for today, and forget what they have to pay tomorrow. Shoot, if all else fails, get a job in anything else, and fly for FUN! What a concept! :)

Don't think about it?
 

When I was much younger I use to smoke. It bothered me some though. I tried not to think about all the anti-smoking advertisements but eventually I came to the conclusion that I had to quit. I loved it and though it has been over 20 years since my last smoke I still think about it often. Of course my life, health and finance's are much better now that I don't smoke but I still miss it very much.

Many of the things that we are drawn to in life are not the best for us. The adult thing to do sometimes is to resist the urge on things that are not in our overall best interest. Aviation is attractive, fun and quite a life distraction for many. One should take stock of all the things in their life that they value to take measure of the sacrifices it takes to make a flying career happen. Usually the price is the dismissal of everything else in your life.

Some however are happy with living alone in a one bedroom apartment on mac and cheese while their peers are getting married, buying homes, saving for retirement and starting families. To each their own as some here like to say, however if the voice in the back of your head is trying to warn you then perhaps you had better listen?

Skyhigh

The problem is that hindsight is always 20/20. I don't want this poster or anyone else to be one of those "(insert flight school name here) stole my money" people. They are businesses, and they are in the business of making money. It doesn't mean they aren't trying to do a good job or provide you with a good product, but all too often the "student" doesn't understand the industry, how it works, how it doesn't work, and so on. They want to think they have a "shot" at "making it", and no one wants to make it sound completely negative, but the flight school doesn't care about this and is only in it to make their money. No one is "looking out for them". So in the end when you've spent 60-100,000+ bucks and fully understand/figure out how the industry works, you are in a rage against the flight school and/or regional airline. The wonderful thing about today is that this information is available and much more accessible than it was 10 or 20 years ago. You must realize that there are things you can do and things you can't do. You are taking far more of a "chance" in this industry than in most any other. You are rolling the dice and hoping that against the odds, the industry gets better, you get more hours than the guy you're being compared with, you have more turbine time than him, your medical status doesn't change or degrade, and so on. It's not about how good you can be in this industry, it's much more down to chance.

If you're dream is to fly a 777 across the ocean, are you willing to endure 40 years in the industry so you can do this in your last 5? Only you can determine if it's worth it, but once again, consider all the other ways to experiene and enjoy aviation, such as EAA, flying clubs, owning your own airplane, building your own airplane, getting advanced certifiactes and type ratings on the side, and so on. Think about specializing in aviation insurance, aviation law, engineering, safety, business, etc. All of these have infinitely more flexibility and opportunity without having to "hope against hope" that your path ends up with the "big money" at the end.

Nothing is worse IMO than blaming people for "getting in the industry" or saying "well they should have known" when they were young and simply didn't have the information. If we knew everything that we were going to encounter, I'm sure we'd all make better choices. Not necessarily different lifestyles or even industry, but we'd know what to avoid and what to do. So go out there and get the information. Ask people how long they've been at regional airlines. Don't ask about what they "think" might happen, ask about what they've experienced and encountered, then consider if you want to experience the same or if the same factors are in place that would cause you to experience the same.

Dear Wannabe ...

First, I hope that 24 isn't too old; if it is, I'm ancient! In fact, I should probably be dead! :) You're not behind the power curve, but, you'll never be in front of the power curve unless you go for it. If you do "go for it", don't half step and go in with your eyes wide open.

Lots of sage advice here based of lots of different experiences. I agree with some and disagree with others; however, if any of the words here have caused you to contemplate what you really want and/or need, the advice shared here has been good. As many have said previously, the only person who can make the "is it worth it" decision is you!

You're 24. Where do you want to be 30-40 years from now. Seek out those guys and find out how they got there. There are a lot of great professional pilot careers besides spending your last years in the left seat of a 777 going trans Atlantic. There are a ton of different paths to open the doors to aviation possibilities. Have a plan! ... and contingency plans!

Should you choose to pursue aviation, start working on your degree yesterday and do it concurrently with aviation. I presume that you have GI Bill eligibility; use every penny (whether you fly or not)!

Some here have recommended that if you do want to fly, you should get a non aviation related degree. I guess that's good advice if you consider diversifying your options. I've found, however, that having a degree in anything is better than not having a degree at all. A few years after you get a degree, or, your second or third job after getting a degree will care little about what you majored in ... aviation or otherwise. (Not that my experiences are better or worse than anyone else's; just different) Years after getting my BA, I went back to school and got a masters. Although I've never worked in a field related to my course of study, having my masters did make the difference between getting an interview or not getting an interview several times ... for what that's worth.

Bottom line ... pursuing aviation can be expensive. But so is pursuing a career as a lawyer or a doctor. Only you can make the "is it worth it decision". All occupations worth pursuing entail sacrafice of some sort or another. In whatever you decide, I wish you the very best!

Figured I'd chime in here, as someone suffering the color vision BS. I have a mild deutran deficiency (almost normal, but enough to make a difference on the tests).. I emailed some Major airlines HR departments about this issue, and they have told me that if I meet the FAA class 1 requirement, then I am medically qualified to work for their airline as a pilot. I believe it would be illegal to turn someone down that is "medically qualified" according to a government agency. There are plenty of major pilots out there right now with color vision deficiencies, so research that issue a bit more and if you get through the FAA's hurdles, I don't think you will have any issues with the airlines after that point.

Hey thanks for the replies everyone! This has been very helpful. As far as aviation being worth it, I understand that that depends on me. I have always loved flying. My problem is, I do not want any loans, so I am actively saving up money now. What I am worried about is saving so much money, getting my ratings, then not making a livable income. I do not expect to become rich in aviation, just would like a small return on my investment.

How have you been Sky? Hope all is well.

I think that having a job for 40 - 55 hours per week (more realistically, add in a 45 minute to an hour commute each way in most cases, plus some night and weekend on call here and there) that pays well is a safe life... But if there is something you would much rather be doing, it can be unhealthy for the mind and soul to not be doing it... I am in that situation, and it works, but that's about it. There are weeks that I leave the house at 7am and don't get home until 9pm, every day... Not saying this is the norm, but it can and does happen often. I have a friend (one of my first CFI's, and to this day years later we still drink beers together) who fly's A320's, and wouldn't change a thing. He kind of lucked out I guess you could say, Flight Safety Academy for a year or 2, CFI for another year or 2, regional job, major job... About a 6 year total time frame. He didn't get started flying until his 30's, but did have the Bachelor's out of the way from his 20's. He gets in all reality half the month off, and loves his job and life. Still has a strong passion (but not unhealthy obsession) for flying, even tho the A320 is a "French voting machine" as he likes to put it. I am in my late 20's at this point, 2 months away from my Bachelor's, and I might give the thing a try as well, even with my color vision issues... I've had plenty of time to research and learn about the industry however, and I recommend you do the same. Get the college (in something else that can lead to a backup career) out of the way, and take a few flying lessons on your semester breaks... Try to hold down your job and keep a steady income. Work on college as cheaply as possible - go with a community college for the first 2 years and transfer... something like that. There is a hell of a tax break right now for Undergrad students called the AOC credit. Take advantage, keep the loan to a minimum, and give it a try. You are not too old at 24. Although I had my Associates degree at age 20, I didn't start my Bachelor's back up until I turned 25. If you can work part time (not full time) and take summer classes, you could nail it in 3 and a half years. Worst case scenario you don't end up flying for a living, but now you have a degree and more and better career options.

I don't subscribe to the "get a career, make millions and fly for pleasure instead" camp, because that's not possible in this world unless you were born into money. It's well over 110 dollars an hour to fly even the most beat up planes you can imagine, and it's just not affordable even if you make 50 to 60k a year (which is a stretch to attain even with a degree), and this doesn't count the CFI cost of 40 - 60 an hour. It won't work if you plan on retiring someday that is. It worked in the 90's when gas was 1.25 a gallon, incomes were exactly the same as they are now (if not higher) and houses cost 50% of what they do now (for the same house, just older and more worn down, which never made any sense to me) even after the so called "crash". So if you want to fly, I think unless you are rich, it has to be leading to some kind of income, or at least a break even scenario (like in some donation or charity cases). Flying clubs are also a possibly... But if you are like me, you will be too tired on weekends to even make the trip to the local airport to begin with, and you won't have enough time to do it often enough to be safe and proficient. I'm sure I'll get a lot of flack for this statement.

So getting SE/ME Comm, Instrument, CFI, II, MEI are cheap and getting a flying job that will likely pay well under 50k for years is a better career move than say even a two year medical degree? But owning a Cessna 150 with an Auto gas STC is for people who were "born into money"?

"If it flies, floats of !@#$'s, then it's always cheaper to rent" Considering that a 150 would cost as much as an expensive car to begin with, then I'd still say yes. This doesn't even consider the cost of maintenance, overhauls, hanger fees, whatever. Oh, and user fee's are just around the corner too I bet it's only a matter of time. Auto gas will cost 5 bux a gallon within 2 years too by the way. Since most people can't afford an expensive car either, then I'd still say yes. It's reserved for the rich.

Yea you might get a 150 for 20 grand, but then it's gonna need work, and will still end up costing 80 bux an hour to operate.

About the medical degree - it's not all roses. My girlfriend does that and is always exhausted after her long hours for the 17 bux an hour pay. Yea an RN program is probably a great idea, but like anything else, doing something you are interested in plays a large part in growing within that field. You can make 50k a year within 5 years in aviation, and I predict it will be easier to do that over the next 5 years than ever before (since not many people are doing it anymore). It takes that long in most fields to get that kind of money anyway... worth a shot - life isn't 100% about money though, you need to be enjoying yourself at least a little bit. If needles and bed pans aren't your thing, is 45k to 65k (in time) going to offset that? Depends on the person I guess.


About the cost of ratings...If you can get all of your post private ratings done for cheaper than 50k, that's still on par if not cheaper than most colleges. I'm not gonna say that's cheap tho, because it's not, and I agree with you on that one - especially since you need a degree on top of that cost. It's just a matter of what you want to do for a career.. Some people pay 200k for college to become a secretary making 35 grand a year... then they quit when they have babies (after collecting the maternity leave)... Call me a cynic, and I'd agree with you... lol It's been a tough 12 years.

The good thing about the forums is we can state our opinions, even if we disagree. I like that, and appreciate people don't see eye to eye with me.... I wouldn't necessarily dissuade people from flying professionally so much as consider all options, one of which is flying for fun. No flying isn't cheap, but I do strongly, strongly disagree with the statement coming from money in order to fly for fun. If you fly for fun, you spread costs out over your whole life. However, flight training to become a professional requires a large financial investement in a short period of time, plus probably college. (And it's not because I come from money, my family was a bunch of red necks, and I suppose I am too.).

People can fly for relatively cheap if they save up, have a somewhat decent job, maybe get a partner, and maybe cut out another expensive hobby. I have heard the excuse that flying is too expensive numerous times from people with all kinds of expensive hobbies, toys, cars, etc. No. They CHOOSE not to nix anything to make room for flying. Period. Maybe you can't fly as much, or as far, as as nice of planes as people born into money.

Flying takes sacrifice, especially if you are not born into money. Some of us are. Some are not. I cannot forget the response Rod Machado gave a young man who wrote to him, essentially asking for cheap/short cuts to become a pilot. Rod lit his arse up!! Next month a writer tried to chastise Rod for being mean, and Rod was like oooh heeeell no! Saying that we all make sacrifices, that's part of what makes our profession unique, and that the boy's attitude smacked of entitlement.

It's no secret to the initiated, that flying is extremely volatile. For single folks, that is probably more acceptable than for those who are married, have kids, a home, are involved in a community. My wife has a ton of nurse friends. I know a few as well. I don't know ONE who has lost their job, couldn't find work after college that paid less than 50k, that had no benefits. I personally know many pilots who have been furloughed at least once, some more than twice! When I was instructing I was gone seven days a week sun up til past sun down. Made maybe 14,000/year NO benefits averaging out my years as a CFI. My wife asked me for a divorce. When I suggest people minimize their debt flight training, and to maybe have other career options its not to be mean! I don't tell people to avoid paying for a job or flying for free to be nasty. I would imagine that is why other folks on the forums tell the young bucks, "not so fast....think about the long term reprecussions of your decision."

You are definitely right... Nursing is a great gig for those with a strong stomach, and it is total BS how the first few years of aviation treat aspiring pilots like dirt. Especially considering how it takes more time, tests, training and know how to do the job than 90% of other career fields out there... I mean it's not like they are asking to be rich, just a living wage. I'm sorry to hear about your situation, and I truly hope things get better for you. About the flying for fun thing... I guess it can be done if you limit to about an hour a week... But how safe is that? I don't know about you, but I don't trust myself without a CFI even if I haven't flown in a few weeks... Maybe it's a confidence issue. But I always felt that it takes 2 to 3 flights per week to really keep proficiency.

Cheaper to own
 

If we are comparing the opportunity cost of an aviation career to the ownership of a Cessna 150, then owning the 150 is fantastically cheaper.

Skyhigh

LOL, Occam's razor at its finest. I love it.

Anyway, I still do believe (and maybe it's just wishful thinking) that aviation can make a successful career. I mean let's take my situation for example... I've had a good amount of time to save some coin while working my IT job over the past 7 years... I got my Private VFR 4 or 5 years ago, and am now just about finished my 4 yr degree (BSIT).. My company funded a good chunk of change toward that degree, as did the tax credit.. And it's not an overly pricey school, (and it's 3 block's from my building) so it couldn't have worked out better. Yea I wanted to be flying all those years instead, but I think this worked out better for the long run, because now I got a degree for practically nothing. All of this while surviving the recession (Almost... My department was literally on the list for cuts, and we survived by a thread). So now in my late 20's, with a cheap degree, money in the bank, money in the 401k, and no debt aside from like 10 grand left on a low interest car payment - I could be in a position to knock out my ratings over the next 6 or so months at a fast paced flight school (yea that's another flame bait, sorry)... Anyway I don't see how it's possible for me to get all of those ratings on top of the hours my job takes up - there just isn't enough time in the day, much less mental energy. Everyone is different, but I think I earned myself a training "break" from working a full time job considering that I haven't been unemployed for a single second since age 14... Worked 2 part time jobs (making up over 40 hours per week) thru highschool, my first 2 yrs of college (not just summer, but the entire time), and full time thru my Bachelor's (full time student as well.. night and weekend classes, some online). With no kids or mortgage, I can afford to do the training now. Would I recommend this to someone 18 yrs old with no education (beyond highschool) or career experience in another field? Heck no. I have a backup plan, and it took me many painful years to build that backup plan. But to me, the thought of being a CFI in 6 months, and sticking it out on 2 grand a month for another year or less as a CFI, then hopefully landing a regional job for 30k doesn't seem too bad. If I can get back up to 50k a year within 5 years, then I'd be ok with that, because it's only up from there. I know you can get laid off and don't get lateral job options and all, but I guess I just am risking the bet that it won't happen to me. If it does? That's where my IT career will come in handy. I can pick up a job or side work if I really had to. Sounds like you can pick up a trucking gig if you had to as well. It all depends on how bad you want to fly. I still love the prospect even post SJS, and many years agonizing about throughout my 20's. I guess that's saying something about how important it is to me to at least give it a try.

@Dan. That's very similar to my story as well. However I have never been interested in a "desk job". That would be the reason I am trucking right now, but this certainly is not a lifestyle I can endure for any real length of time. I know that flying shares many similarities with trucking(time away from home, living on the road, etc) but I love airplanes not trucks. I certainly have never had anything handed to me and have had to figure things out on my own for the most part. So as I have said, I'm just worried about spending so much money on such an uncertain future.

So here is a new question for those of you flying for a living... Has it become a job yet? Are you "bored" of flying?

I know the answer will vary, just wondering. Thanks again for the help everyone!

I wish you well, looks like you have things in order to "give it a go." You seem to have a good background in life, work, and some education under your belt. Best regards.

In the end
 

This is the only life you have to live. In the end only you can decide what you value. In my case I always wanted to earn a good living so that I could support a family. No way would I have ever taken step one into this miserable career had I known what lied ahead. I value my friends, family, hobbies and financial security. We did not have APC back then. You have been briefed and know what you are getting yourselves into.

Best of Luck,

Skyhigh

Bottom line, you have a well thought-out plan. Go for it and enjoy the journey... You'll do fine.

Getting a college degree would allow you to be more marketable for managers positions. helicopters are positive