Duksrule

So I know everyone says that in 121/135 ops the guy who "signs for the airplane" is the PIC no matter who is flying.

Probably apples to oranges but is it considered the same in GA? If you are splitting time with someone does the guy that signs the dispatch paperwork and signs for the plane magically become the PIC no matter what?

Flyhayes

I'd think that in the rental company's and insurance company's eyes it's the person who signs for the aircraft that is also deemed responsible for the aircraft. If we have time builders splitting time in our aircraft we require both of them to have completed an aircraft checkout.

The FAA on the other hand has at times deemed the most experienced (either in terms of total flight time or ratings held) pilot in the aircraft to be the PIC.

rickair7777

Financial responsibility is not the same thing as PIC, they can be different.

Actually, No. he FAA cannot arbitrarily and after-the-fact re-assign the PIC for a flight. What they can (and will) do, is hold all pilots on board responsible for what happened. The degree of responsibility (and punishment) may be based on the level of certificate held (ie the CFI gets spanked harder than the PPL).

rickair7777

The PIC is whoever you agree on (hopefully before the flight).

lolwut

Yep, agree on who the PIC is for the flight. If theres ever a question, it is who is responsible for the airplane. Also, the PIC cannot change mid-flight. There has to be one pilot onboard that aircraft from start to finish who is ultimately responsible for what that airplane does.

That doesn't mean that other pilots can't log PIC time in various situations.

Twin Wasp

I'd like to see the reference for that. I can think of a couple times weather goes down on a high mins Captain. Time and initials and now we have a new Captain. I have no idea how they logged if they were even logging time.

NoyGonnaDoIt

The rules for responsibility in Parts 135 and 121 are much more well-defined than plain-vanilla Part 91. There may be rules about responsibility for the airplane based on who signs for it, but those rules come from the owner/operator of the aircraft (and it's insurer) not from the FAA.

Once you get beyond category/class/endorsement limitations (FAA) and contractual ones between renter and organization (owner/operator), responsibility on a Part 91 flight is primarily based on agreement between the involved pilots, with a bit of 20/20 hindsight by the FAA and others if there is an accident or incident.

That 20/20 hindsight is more complicated than the popular myth that the FAA always goes after the pilot with the higher ratings (and the related incorrect assumption that the PIC is the only pilot who can be held responsible).

There's no restriction at all on changing PIC in flight. Pilots do it. There's no prohibition on it. More importantly, the FAA has found changes of PIC in enforcement actions.

And of course, we're talking here about who is "acting as" or "is" the PIC; not the very different question of how the time is logged.

Duksrule

That is the question.

So a CRJ crew has the Captain sign for the aircraft and he logs PIC for the entire flight no matter who is actually at the controls? I am guessing the answer is yes.

If the answer is yes then if 2 guys go and rent a C-172 and only one of them sign for and is reponsible for the aircraft would that person not be the PIC for the entire flight no matter who is flying?

How/why is it different just because one is 91 and one is 121?

Twin Wasp

No difference at all. The Part 1 PIC is logging the time he is acting as PIC. The other pilot can log time as PIC since he is the sole manipulator.

NoyGonnaDoIt

He would "be" the PIC but he might not permitted to log any PIC flight time.

The very first thing you absolutely need to do to understand the logging rules is to get your head around the concept that the way the FAA has set up the rules "being" the PIC and "logging PIC flight time" are two completely different things. Get that and it all falls into place (even if yo don't agree with the FAA's choices); don't get it and none of it makes sense.

The difference between the Part 121 flight and two guys in a 172 is this: all proper flight time logging from a regulatory standpoint is covered by one regulation: 61.51. All of it. No exceptions. 61.51 may tell you to look somewhere else for part of an answer, but it's always the place to start.

If you look at 61.51(e) you will find all of the ways of and conditions for logging PIC. For three and a half examples that deal with your question, look at 61.51(e)(1)(i), 61(e)(1)(iii) and 61.51(e)(2).

(e)(1)(i) allows for the pilot who is rated for the aircraft to log PIC flight time whenever the sole manipulator of the controls.

(e)(1)(ii) allows a pilot who is acting as the pilot in command of a crew on a flight that requires (as in required by the FAA) more than one pilot to log PIC flight time.

(e)(2) allows an ATP who is acting as PIC on a flight that requires an ATP to log PIC flight time.

The "and a half?" Yo won't find any part of 61.51 that authorizes flight time just because a pilot happens to be in command of a flight - notice that both (e)(1)(ii) and (e)(2) has a required condition in addition to acting as PIC - a required multi-pilot crew in one case; a flight that requires an ATP in another.

With that ammunition, you should be able to answer the question about the difference between two guys in a 172 and and a Part 121 flight.