Open Letter
 

TO: Those of you who are considering investing in professional big university flight training.

Consider what your life would be like in 20 years if you used the funds for training to buy a house instead?

A paid off house is quite an advantage in life. The 120K piece of plastic in your wallet and worthless degree on the wall not so much.

Skyhigh

For expanded reading, consider "Rich Dad Poor Dad".

Either way, $120K to learn how to fly, plus a four year degree that says you know how to fly does not make you all that educated or provide a solid backup should you medical out.

Any person getting an education today should view schools/universities as used car salesmen. If you want to learn to fly, fine. Just understand that flight schools are ultimately looking to make a *big, big, big* dollar sale out of YOU!

There are loooots of overpriced, overhyped degrees today. Depending on where you go aviation can certainly be one of those degrees that separates you from your money, your credit rating, and put you on a track to 20-30 thousand a year. :rolleyes:

Buyer beware. Do your research. Don't fall for higher education lies. Aviation or not, college is a business looking to make a sale!

.....................

I used to agree with this mode of thinking 100%... now I'm not so sure.

Many of you I assume are either already at the magical 1500 hours or have AT LEAST 500 hours. That makes finding a job a lot easier than say a wet commercial guy with 250 to 300 hours. There are so many new commercial pilots and barely any jobs. And with all the furloughing and instability at the airlines, many former-airline pilots are taking the jobs that low-time pilots once had available to them. CFI jobs are drying up (and most require a CFI/CFII/MEI plus a minimum of 500 hours), and all other facets of low-time pilot time-building jobs now have raised minimums to either 300PIC or 500TT to meet insurance requirements.

The one thing that I have noted as being a plus and maybe a little extra "foot in the door" is the response to this question: "Did you attend a 61 or 141 school"? As soon as I say a Part141, the tone of the conversation usually changes and the person on the other end of the line becomes more interested. This has happened to me numerous times.

So in terms of costs, YES Part141 schools, colleges, or academies tend to cost a little more. But if you want to find that job with less than 500TT it might just be the right move for you. The game is changing and it is getting harder. I've been to every airport within a 2 hour drive looking for a job and I've called or stopped in at every chief pilot's office I can find. Nothing. I've applied at jobs all over the country and not a word. When you have less than 500TT its hard to be taken seriously I guess.

I'm almost finished with my CFI/II training and I hope that helps to some degree in finding a job. Even though there is no money/students around here as a CFI.

But like I said, it seems like 141 or 61 makes a difference to many chief pilots. And it might just be the difference in someone finding the elusive low-time commercial job.

Respectfully, I have never once heard of this happening to anyone. Nobody cares about 61 vs 141, because there are plenty of 141 programs which are no better than the average 61 operation. 141 ops can easily comply with the letter of the law without really meeting the spirit.

The only time they care where you got your training was if the institution starts with the words "United States". On the civilian side, if you attended the same aviation university as the interviewer you will probably get alumni bonus points, just like in any other career.

The only place this might be true is if you are applying for a CFI job at a 141 school...they might prefer someone who trained under 141 so you understand some of the administrative complexities. But this would not be worth spending a HUGE amount of extra money for 141.

I usually advise avoiding 141 in favor of a carefully selected 61 school.

I have trained, instructed, managed, and hired in both 141 and 61 environments.

I mean... I'm not making it up. So you can believe what you want. Just sharing my experiences.

I've been in contact with about 20 different companies. From sky-diving, to aerial survey, and everything in between. Off-hand, I'd say 7 asked the question. Thats close to half. All I'm implying is that attending a 141 school might improve chances of getting that first job (the hardest one to get as far as I can tell).

Like I stated before... Maybe things have changed a bit since many of you were in these shoes. Maybe they haven't and I'm experiencing an extraordinary circumstance. Who knows.

Part 141 or 61?
 

In my experience if you are trying to get hired as an instructor at a part 141 school then it definitely helps to be a graduate from the same program. However one of the main differences in part 61 versus part 141 is that the main benefit of part 141 is to trim flight hours.

It takes more flight time to reach the experience level to get the commercial license. As a result the 141 graduate has to bridge that gap in flight time when looking for a job therefore 141 can be a disadvantage.

Skyhigh

Just to be clear, I'm not saying don't go to big name programs. I'm also not saying *to* attend big name programs. Any pro pilot hopefuls should realize that they are just prey in world full of predators (cue shiny jet advertisement.) Quite frankly, I see a lot of educational programs selling snake oil these days, as the "good" degrees and "good" jobs seem elusive, while the student debt burden far out paces inflation! This debt to income ratio is ruinous!

I went to a four year aviation program, and mostly regret it. I also feel that most of the faculty only cared about having butts in their classroom seats. Translation; they get paid. They sell the "dream" to prospective students and even with their Facebook pages, but in their classes, speaking to folks admitted in the major, these same professors talk about the starvation wages, poor QOL, etc. Why can't these institutions tell the truth to starry eyed kids and parents? I hate liars and exaggereators!

With the age of the internet, I beg prospective pilots to do lots of research and don't be afraid to put flight schools on the spot about the realities of the profession! And don't let the school roll right into the pilot shortage myth, like a well rehearsed politician.

I'm not saying that pilots shouldn't be aware of the "false advertisement" at a lot of 141 "academies"... I went through one knowing full-well what I was getting into because I did hours and hours of research on here and elsewhere. But then again I don't have any debt so I'm not sweating it as hard as some might be.

If I could do it all over again I might do it a little bit different, but not much. I'm pretty happy with the training I received and the price I paid.

Opportunity cost
 

The opportunity cost is the opportunity lost. Not only do pilots have to front the cash for four years of college and flight training but they also have to consider the wasted years after getting licensed and education trying to build experience.

It all goes onto the great hole in the sky and needs to be counted. Your first clue that something is wrong is when your friends and peers outside of aviation start buying houses, getting married, and building lives while you are still living like an impoverished college kid.

Buy the house instead.

Skyhigh

No Sky, their first clue is reviewing all of your one-sided 6,575 post's regarding a profession that has been successful for a LOT of people as well as a disappointment. Lighten up dude, you made your point 6,570 post's ago. Crack a cold one and loosen up the belt.:)

No, new pilots need to stop whoring themselves for next to nothing, and find a job that will support them the way they want to live. I'm right at 18 months out of that big pilot factory in Daytona Beach, nearly debt free, and enjoying life, while I see lots of people I went to school with just struggling to survive. People seem to forget there is more to flying than the 121/135 world and instructing. Sure, there aren't tons of jobs out there, but if you really want something, go find it. Complaining on the internet doesn't fix anything.

Most of my friends that have graduated college in the past 2 to 3 years don't have real jobs and sure as hell won't be buying houses in the next 5 years.

This economy has changed the game for a lot of folks.

And I have no real want to own a house... I would own property as an investment, but never a house of my own. I'm a bit of a vagabond by nature. Have been for years. So maybe thats another reason I picked this profession.

I was the first in my group of friends to get married, buy a house, and start a family. And the house is the only debt in my name. My friends that went to law school had a hard time finding jobs after they graduated and ended up doing unpaid internships to hopefully get a paid position later on. The valedictorian of my class couldn't find a job with a masters degree and ended up working at Kohls.

There's nothing wrong with aviation and there are plenty of opportunities.

Everything is broken and wrong right now with being an airline pilot. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone I know.


Too many people think aviation=airline pilot. I do wish some of the posters would stop using the term "aviation career" to only describe being an airline pilot.

I start a new job in aviation very soon. I couldn't be happier. About 3x the pay of a regional airline pilot. I'll be able to afford flying on the side (outside of a bit of flying I get on the job). Not constantly going through security and taking off my shoes. I won't be worrying about furlough. I won't be worried about getting "stuck" as an FO, etc...

So many people set out with this "single goal" before college, and sometimes before high school, they are going to be an "airline pilot". After adjusting my goal from "astronaut" to "airline pilot", I figured that this was achievable, but being that I set my sights on it early, I tried to make all of my efforts centered towards it. With so many people doing everything they can to reach this goal, the airlines and industry can sit back and draw off of the constant/steady supply whenever necessary. No shortage, no reason to pay them a lot of money as long as their sights are set on that 777. If you REALLY know what you are doing, you can get certs and ratings on the side while you have a fairly decent job, save up a chunk of money for some ATP stuff, get a type rating, do a little corporate flying, then wait and "pounce" on the major airline job with your turbine time. There are a few ways to do something similar, but timing and luck are everything as indicated all over this site. The funny part is that with an "alternate route" you can often cut out the regional airline thing and the excessive misery, but once you are "locked in", it's hard to get out (example of circumventing: was offered a CAE position, starting off teaching ground, moving to sim, getting type, acting as FO or CA when necessary, after a year would have option of going to any partner (major) airline or big pay increase to stay at CAE). Problem is, no one is going to tell you about these things and only so many people can come in "from the sides", so once that's filled up you don't really have a choice, but no one is usually out there letting people know about these alternate routes or how to have a decent job you enjoy while doing the flying thing "semi-seriously" until a good opportunity comes along.

If we could change this one perception that aviation=being an airline pilot, I think we could make some amazing progress towards better quality of life and respect for the position. These "aviation schools" can be beneficial for these types of jobs outside of "airline pilot", but from the students, to the professors, to the instructors, to the recruiters, all that is preached is "airline pilot" and how "some day" things are going to get "really good again". So many airline pilots are out there now hoping and waiting for this to happen...


"tell me about the rabbits again george!"

Maybe at this beginning level of aviation jobs it may be the case. But at an airline, fractional, or corporate gig interview, it will NOT be brought up. If so you should laugh and walk away. EXPERIENCE is what everyone is looking for.

141 vs 61 that is...

I figured... it just seems like a way for companies that employ low-time pilots to perhaps help weed through some of the applicants. With things the way they are today, I'm sure they have a stack of resumes at least a few dozen thick to sift through.

I'm willing to relocate, still can't find anything. Hopefully I can shake up something in a couple of weeks when I finish my CFI and the survey companies start hiring for the season.

You guys think it's bad? You should come to Europe. Some guys are willing to spend 120,000 GBP ($190,000) for pilot training and it doesn't even include a University degree. Then, they expect to get a job flying a Boeing 737 or Airbus A320 straight out of school (which some do), but a significant percentage don't find anything. I hear guys say that they don't want to fly a turboprop, have no interest in instructing, they would "settle" to fly a cargo plane as long as it had two jets...

I'm serious. A friend of mine was unsuccessful at two interviews (250 hours total time, one interview was for a 737 operator, the other flying single engine turboprops in the bush). His plan is to go back to the family business and save up for a type rating, and possibly pay for time on type. Lots of guys go back to their old jobs and then keep sending out résumés hoping that someone will bite. Some days, I wonder what I am doing here as far as trying to progress a flying career.

No CFI huh? FYI, there are plenty of CFI jobs. CFI jobs are not drying up as you previously mentioned. Flight schools often prefer CFIs with low time. The reason behind that is not too difficult to figure out if you just think about it for a minute.

There aren't any CFI jobs in my area (less than a 1.5 hour drive) that offer more than 50 to 60 hours a month (on a good month). I'm not opposed to working as a CFI (I actually think it could be a lot of fun), but if I'm willing to move for a job I'd rather it be in something I'd rather be doing. And a lot of CFI jobs around here want I/II/MEI and 500TT just like anything else.

The school I work for will only hire CFI's trained under 141. This is due to lower requirements to train intial CFI's. If you trained and recieved your CFI part 141, you can instruct initial CFI's at 400 dual given and a 80% pass rate instead of the onld 200 dual given and holding your CFI for 2 years. This shave over a year off of me being able to instruct initial CFI's

The house is a good place to sit behind a computer and complain about the career you gave up on.






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