IrishFlyer757

Hello -

I am teaching a guy for his pvt at a small part 61 FBO. He is a 56 year old farmer that bought his own little Cherokee 180 before he even got his license. He is a bit wide-eyed and naiive but a good guy overall.

He asked me the other day - "What would ever keep me from just filling out all sorts of time in my logbook and reporting it to the insurance company so that my insurance premium would go down?"

I was a bit startled that he would even ask that - but knowing him he will not do that. It got me thinking though - what would stop him? How would the insurance company even know? He is the aircraft owner and once he has a private there is nobody there to police him or his log entries.

I explained to him besides the obvious insurance fraud (maybe?) and the fact that his log is considered a federal document and that falsifying it would be a bad bad idea - I didn't know what else to say.

Can anyone explain how I might better answer the question?

usmc-sgt

They can match times on his AC with his logbook as well as mx records.

If there are records that his last annual Hobbs reading was 2000 they have somewhere to go. If he claims to have 500 hours all in his plane and the Hobbs doesn't match there would be trouble. The times would show in his AC mx logs.

It's difficult to catch though and they may not even think/care to look. Total guess here but I'd say ~5% of Parker time is caught and punished.

rickair7777

They won't care as long as they are just collecting your premiums. But if you have a really big liability claim, they will go looking for reasons to deny coverage and they could probably find it in the Mx logs unless you're an A&P IA and falsify those records too.

IrishFlyer757

Is the FAA the agency that would punish? Other than denying the claim can the insurance company take you to court? Would the FAA take away your license?

Std Deviation

Here's what's to prevent him - when he turns in the claim and they fail to pay because of insurance fraud. Here's the other one - the lack of CFIs willing to fly with him because of his blatant disregard for regs, SOPs, etc. Want your name in that logbook during the next BFR?

He will also have to falsify the medical application if he wants it to match. If he "retrofies" his logbook it will not coincide with the medical application times and dates.

Std Deviation

As previously mentioned, if he's willing to falsify logbooks what else would he falsify - mx maybe? I've had this happen with several students in their own aircraft. Illegal mx that went well beyond preventative. And stuff that was obviously done but was never logged because they did not have an A&P. I also caught a student out flying the aircraft solo without an endorsement because it was "his airplane and he'll do what he wants with it."

I am very careful with students in their own aircraft and require that I look over the logs before I start flying with them and conduct a BFR/IPC. "Pitot-static check? Who needs that? I can save that money by just not doing it....."

JamesNoBrakes

Unless he's using said time to get a certificate, meet aeronautical experience requirements, etc, the FAA may not be terribly interested, it depends on how they want to interpret the regs, but even if there was grounds in part 61 (which could be argued with a good lawyer), the most the FAA can do is take his certs and small penalties, not throw him in jail. 61.51, it's all there. The insurance company would be the one that would go after him. I'm sure they'd sue him for misrepresentation and so on.

If it's falsification of maintenance, falsification of experience to meet currency or aeronautical experience requirements, well yeah, they are going to go after that. The FAA aren't exactly "cops", they are bound by a pretty small book (FARs) when it comes down to it. What you do outside of that is up to you, and other people would most likely be interested if it's contrary to laws or common sense.

2bennySODC6

How is your logbook considered a Federal document? If I logged all my flights on a toilet paper roll, would that also be considered a Federal document?

Cubdriver

Unfortunately I suspect there is quite a bit of crookedness in the realm of backwater aircraft MX. There just isn't much supervision and there is a lot of temptation to cheat. In my limited exposure to MX logs never having owned anything, I have seen several flagrant examples of MX forgery. One was a Piper Apache that stated it had both engine overhauled. Following a gear extension failure both were opened it was obvious both overhauls were a complete fiction. Another occurred when I was asked to fly a 60s vintage Skylane that had an annual topping 7 grand in annual work. It had logs showing all the annuals had been done for decades. I got curious how could this need 7 grand worth of piddly repairs and asked the mechanic about it. The guy gets out 12 pages of his worksheets on the job and apologetically explains every item on it. All were critical to safety. The last ten or twelve annuals were just forgeries.

This kind of thing seems to be most associated with 30-50 year old airframes. Not new enough to avoid lots of work, yet not old enough to park. The owner has to either park the thing or turn to crime, and apparently quite a few are willing to do the latter. I'm sure the rationalizations are as fabulous as the repairs they never did.

rickair7777

Yes, if you used that time to meet aeronautical experience or currency requirements.