Go Back  Airline Pilot Central Forums > Career Builder > Flight Schools and Training
Status of the 1500 hr ATP requirement? >

Status of the 1500 hr ATP requirement?

Notices
Flight Schools and Training Ratings, building hours, airmanship, CFI topics

Status of the 1500 hr ATP requirement?

Old 10-14-2012, 06:16 AM
  #21  
Gets Weekends Off
 
chrisreedrules's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Feb 2012
Position: CRJ FO
Posts: 4,598
Default

The pilots we are describing are certainly sweeping generalizations... There are plenty of great pilots that come from University programs. But do they deserve to have reduced hiring minimums? In my opinion no. In most cases they are less prepared for the "real world" of flying and are all in a big rush to hop in an RJ because that is what they are taught. My main point was just that I don't see how gradates of a University aviation program are any better prepared to fly at a regional than the guy who went to his local FBO. If the 1500 hour rule was indeed about safety as they say it is, then the rationale behind this portion of the bill simply doesn't make sense.
chrisreedrules is offline  
Old 10-14-2012, 07:22 AM
  #22  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Sep 2009
Position: Left seat of a Jet
Posts: 514
Default

Originally Posted by Bellanca View Post
I'm with ChrisReed on this one.

I have a mostly part 61 background and I currently instruct at a University, and I don't know how the students at the University are any more qualified than a lot of people coming out of the 61 world.

They are very sheltered, most of them graduate from our program without flying through a cloud, they have a limited number of airports they are allowed to go to, the longest cross country they ever get to go on is 250 nm one for commercial (and our school is talking about changing that so they don't actually go 250 nm from our home airport), they aren't allowed to file IFR for solo flights, we go to ridiculous lengths of hand-holding and spoon-feeding when they are not doing well, and the list goes on.
Single pilot 135 freight will cure many of those ailments you speak of as well as make a man or woman out of you, and put hair on your chest. You will have to live through the experience of course. I would not trade my 135 freight experience for anything because the experience has really helped my overall aviation experience. Peace!
bozobigtop is offline  
Old 10-14-2012, 08:29 AM
  #23  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: May 2009
Posts: 474
Default

I think many of you are being very dismissive of the education provided by the big aeronautical universities. Everybody loves to hate ERAU, UND, etc., because they "know a guy" who graduated from that school who was "a really bad pilot," "sheltered," or wasn't a "critical thinker" so they paint with that broad brush.

Using that logic, I could say, "Hey, why go to college anyway? All you learn to do is party and drink beer!" I could also bash Part 61 training and say that all a Part 61 guy has to do is go to a local Mom&Pop, memorize the questions for the written and take the practical with the "well known" local DPE who isn't looking to disrupt his gravy train exam fees and pretty much gives the same "well known/documented" ride to each guy he tests. No one wants to go to a DPE who fails "too many guys," right? Yeah, that Part 61 pilot learns a lot going that route, too.....right?

I went through a big aeronautical university and got that aeronautical degree. It was a very technical degree. I DID learn a thing or two about aviation. The guy that taught our turbines class was a former engineer from Pratt&Whitney. We dissected turbine engines. The guy that taught out aircraft systems class was an A&P, IA, and had been in the airline business for decades. When I press the hydraulic pump button, I understand how the switch works, how an electrical relay works to turn the pump on, why a relay is used, and how a variable displacement engine driven hydraulic pump works. I know that because the instructor had one sitting on the table in front of the class, cut in half so we could see how it worked, and explained it all. The guy that taught our flight engineer course had a Master's Degree, had been an airline pilot for decades, and had been an instructor at his airline for years. And he was a really nice guy because he always told us what question 1 would be on each systems exam: draw the system being tested out, from memory. I took classes in CRM, aviation safety, aviation law, aerodynamics, aircraft performance, global navigation, etc. The flight courses I took were structured courses, and the expectation before every flight was that you studied and arrived prepared. Does a guy who goes through a Part 61 program get that kind of aeronautical education? Is that education worth anything?

I guess you could argue, who cares? I press the button, the hydraulic pump goes on. I press it again, it goes off. Who cares that it is a Vickers variable displacement piston pump controlled by a button on the overhead panel through a 24V DC relay? Well, I think one could argue that after having taken 4 years of classes that go into that sort of detail is worth "something." Back that education up with a structured Part 141 flight curriculum and I can see how they might lower the requirements for the ATP a little bit. Although I don't agree they should
globalexpress is offline  
Old 10-14-2012, 09:05 AM
  #24  
Gets Weekends Off
 
chrisreedrules's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Feb 2012
Position: CRJ FO
Posts: 4,598
Default

But thats just it... Anyone can get training like that if they pay for it. Like I've said. I went to a Part141 school and had formal ground school classes as well. I took a turbine transition course taught by an A&P who went to school for the PT6. And my experiences aren't from one or two guys... I've met several university flight program guys my (albeit relatively short) aviation career and got the same impression off of most of them. I know that is a generalization and that not everyone who attends these programs turns out like that. I just think they should be held to the same standards as everyone else. And for the record, even when I have my ATP mins I don't really plan on going to a regional. I'd really like to fly 135 and see where that takes me. So I really don't have much stake in this as far as I'm concerned. I need 135 mins regardless of what happens so that is what I am working towards.
chrisreedrules is offline  
Old 10-14-2012, 09:07 AM
  #25  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Nov 2009
Posts: 5,169
Default

Originally Posted by globalexpress View Post
words...
I did too. However when the poop hits the fan, I fall back on my experience, not what I read in some class at 0kts, 0 G. Book work is not a substitute for real world experience.
Grumble is offline  
Old 10-14-2012, 09:24 AM
  #26  
Line Holder
 
Joined APC: May 2011
Posts: 48
Default

Originally Posted by globalexpress View Post
I think many of you are being very dismissive of the education provided by the big aeronautical universities. Everybody loves to hate ERAU, UND, etc., because they "know a guy" who graduated from that school who was "a really bad pilot," "sheltered," or wasn't a "critical thinker" so they paint with that broad brush.

Using that logic, I could say, "Hey, why go to college anyway? All you learn to do is party and drink beer!" I could also bash Part 61 training and say that all a Part 61 guy has to do is go to a local Mom&Pop, memorize the questions for the written and take the practical with the "well known" local DPE who isn't looking to disrupt his gravy train exam fees and pretty much gives the same "well known/documented" ride to each guy he tests. No one wants to go to a DPE who fails "too many guys," right? Yeah, that Part 61 pilot learns a lot going that route, too.....right?

I went through a big aeronautical university and got that aeronautical degree. It was a very technical degree. I DID learn a thing or two about aviation. The guy that taught our turbines class was a former engineer from Pratt&Whitney. We dissected turbine engines. The guy that taught out aircraft systems class was an A&P, IA, and had been in the airline business for decades. When I press the hydraulic pump button, I understand how the switch works, how an electrical relay works to turn the pump on, why a relay is used, and how a variable displacement engine driven hydraulic pump works. I know that because the instructor had one sitting on the table in front of the class, cut in half so we could see how it worked, and explained it all. The guy that taught our flight engineer course had a Master's Degree, had been an airline pilot for decades, and had been an instructor at his airline for years. And he was a really nice guy because he always told us what question 1 would be on each systems exam: draw the system being tested out, from memory. I took classes in CRM, aviation safety, aviation law, aerodynamics, aircraft performance, global navigation, etc. The flight courses I took were structured courses, and the expectation before every flight was that you studied and arrived prepared. Does a guy who goes through a Part 61 program get that kind of aeronautical education? Is that education worth anything?

I guess you could argue, who cares? I press the button, the hydraulic pump goes on. I press it again, it goes off. Who cares that it is a Vickers variable displacement piston pump controlled by a button on the overhead panel through a 24V DC relay? Well, I think one could argue that after having taken 4 years of classes that go into that sort of detail is worth "something." Back that education up with a structured Part 141 flight curriculum and I can see how they might lower the requirements for the ATP a little bit. Although I don't agree they should
I think you raise some valid points. It does seem popular to discount the quality/value/purpose of large university aviation programs, but an FBO will not teach to the same level of detail. The ability to truly understand how an aircraft system works can't be underestimated, especially in an emergency situation.

That said, I'd certainly concede that it is possible for a great a lousy pilot to be developed out of either program. FBOs and 141 university programs both have their advantages and disadvantages, but I believe that the ground school education of a university is likely to be of a much higher quality. I have experienced what a couple of FBOs have to offer, and I prefer the university route myself.
Zidac is offline  
Old 10-14-2012, 09:51 AM
  #27  
Line Holder
 
Joined APC: May 2011
Posts: 48
Default

Originally Posted by Grumble View Post
I did too. However when the poop hits the fan, I fall back on my experience, not what I read in some class at 0kts, 0 G. Book work is not a substitute for real world experience.
Whoa, 0 G?
Zidac is offline  
Old 10-14-2012, 10:04 AM
  #28  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: May 2009
Posts: 474
Default

Originally Posted by Grumble View Post
I did too. However when the poop hits the fan, I fall back on my experience, not what I read in some class at 0kts, 0 G. Book work is not a substitute for real world experience.
Maybe a guy who spent 4 years taking various CRM, aviation safety, and accident investigation courses, for example, will be able to recognize a situation that is rapidly deteriorating and use those skills to prevent the poop from hitting the fan in the first place?
globalexpress is offline  
Old 10-14-2012, 12:25 PM
  #29  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Oct 2009
Position: CFI/II/MEI
Posts: 481
Default

Well some people have engineering degrees that have given them quite a bit of technical knowledge. . But engineering doesn't count. And my aviation masters and the fact that I've been instructing at one of these universities doesn't count..

If they are going to give every aviation science and airport management major an exception, then what about engineers, and other people with technical degrees, and what about a&ps? Where does it stop? Slippery slope isn't it?
Bellanca is offline  
Old 10-14-2012, 04:21 PM
  #30  
Gets Weekends Off
 
JamesNoBrakes's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: Volleyball Player
Posts: 3,977
Default

Originally Posted by Zidac View Post
Whoa, 0 G?
He read it on the vomit comet.
JamesNoBrakes is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
oldveedubs
Regional
169
02-26-2013 10:36 AM
Lawn
Flight Schools and Training
7
12-12-2011 07:41 AM
JustAnotherPLT
Flight Schools and Training
5
10-29-2011 06:41 AM
SYdude
Flight Schools and Training
16
03-15-2010 12:46 AM
Atrain77
Flight Schools and Training
10
02-09-2006 02:11 PM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Your Privacy Choices