HuggyU2

So,... why do some flight schools elect to go for the Part 141 certification? I'm guessing there must be some sort of financial incentive?
I don't know much about the differences... but it seems the 141 way is a lot more scrutiny.
Can anyone shed light on the differences between the two?

mexipilot84

Most 141 schools are VA approved which require the p141 curriculum. 141 is cheaper in the long run for the student as less hours are required, but it follows the structured lesson plan to meet the requirements

HuggyU2

Really? I was under the impression that 141 was longer/more expensive because of the detailed syllabus that the FAA has to approve... and therefore they were less "flexible".
Thanks for the info.

thegoblin

Also because you can bring international students in on one year student visas.

JamesNoBrakes

Lots of reasons. If they are a good enough school, they can get self-examination authority, saving the students hundreds in the examiner fees. If they want, they can apply for reduced hours as long as they can show they are meeting standards. If a student fails a stage check, it does not go on his record (unless it was with an FAA examiner), it's just simply failing a specific flight, you "pass" and get your certificate because you pass the course. The VA will only approve money for a 141 curriculum that has been approved by the FAA, so that's another reason. A 141 school ensures standardization, and although it might not seem that way to students who have not experienced otherwise, it's usually a LOT more standardized switching between instructors at a 141 school compared to other places. In other words, there's less people just off doing "their own thing" that is radically different from what the other instructors at the school do. Easier to know what to expect when switching.

rickair7777

It is more expensive. In THEORY it could be cheaper due to less flight hours, but the reality is that the lack of flexibility tends to cause most students to go over the minimums anyway. If you pick up on one task quickly in 61, you can move right on to the next item...but in 141 you can't do that, you have to complete the allotted lessons/flight time for that task before moving on. But if you struggle with a task or two, then you have to buy extra time.

Also the 141 schools usually jack up their hourly rates, justifying the added cost by "better" training and lower flight hours to finish. Of course in the end most folks go way over the the minimums anyway.

The 141 "quality advantage" generally doesn't exist...most 141 schools employ the same low time/low pay time-building instructors you'll find at any other school.

As was mentioned, schools really do 141 so they can process VA bennies and Visa students, and I wouldn't recommend 141 unless you're one of those two.

Once they get 141 for those reasons, they also try to use it as a marketing gimmick against the uninformed.

There is some potential benefit to in-house examining...the school can be more lenient if they think they can get away with it. In the past, 141 checkride failures did not go on your FAA record but that changed after colgan.

61 simply provides more flexibility, especially for those who have previous flight time and/or training towards a rating.

In the end you'll probably pay at least as much for 141 and graduate with less total time. Yeah! You saved some total time! But wait a minute... don't I need MORE, not LESS, total time to qualify for an ATP and get an airline job???

HuggyU2

Thank you all.

Duckdude

Hi Rickair,

I think you may be generalizing a bit too much. I own a 141 flight school in the Richmond, VA area and we have lower rates than either of the other two part 61 schools in Richmond. We did become 141 to get VA money, just like you suggested and my instructors instruct both part 61 and part 141. The real savings is not in the private, in fact it can often cost more since more ground training is required. But for the instrument you can easily save 30 hours or more of flight time by not needing the 50 X/C hours. And of course a commercial at 190(or less at bigger, more established schools) instead of 250 saves money too.

I have a 1,000 pilot with 500 X/C wanting to get a commercial under 141. In his case that would be a HUGE waste of time and money because, as you stated, he would still have to do the full 141 program vs. just checking the few unfilled 61 boxes he has and then learning lazy 8's, etc.

In a 141 program you will have less total time, with the hope being that you can be paid to build time instead of paying to build time. Of course there is no guarantee this will actually happen but at least you have a chance.

rickair7777

Sounds like you're doing it right...reasonable rates across the board and part 61 flexibility where it makes sense.

With reasonable rates, a 141 school can save you money on the IR and CPL. But too many of them jack up the rates since the VA students get a huge discount anyway (paid for by Uncle Sam).

It would certainly behoove a student to explore every option within his geographic area, and the right 141 school could make sense.

But don't automatically assume that 141 training is "better" and therefore worthy of higher rates...it's usually not. Even the excuse that "141 costs more because of FAA administrative requirements" is not good enough...it may very well be true but that doesn't benefit the student unless he's VA.

IMO you also need to compare total cost (of the entire program, including ground training and incidentals) to total flight time.

If you have a zero-to-hero 61 and 141 CPL programs...

For argument sake, lets say the 61 program will cost $40K. You're probably not going to go over that too much because any extra time spent on PPL or IR can be applied to the CPL total time. $40K / 250 hours = $160/flight hour

If the 141 program costs $50K (probably typical), even assuming that you don't go over on anything you're looking at $50K/190 hours = $263/flight hour. In order to "break even" with the 61 program the 141 program total cost would need to be $30K.

Since your initial career progression (whether it's airlines or biz av) depends on accumulating total time, that is a factor to consider. For VA students, the 141 math is quite different!

Cubdriver

One rather large advantage of the Part 61 system is how easy it is to set up, operate, and move one. A lot of students have lives in places where Part 141 schools do not exist where it's 61 or nothing. Many thousand of pilots have used 61 schools simply because they were available in local Mayberry, while the larger 141 schools tend to be located in major cities.

I agree with the cost rundown Rick gave, and feel that for self-funded students including professional wannabees it is hardly ever worth it to go 141. As an instructor also having worked in both systems, I vastly prefer the freedom of 61. That freedom translates to better training- we cut to the chase and give the student what he or she needs, not a check box tour of a syllabus. I have had great success in Part 61 systems when I had problem students by inventing lessons to cure their individual ills. I could not do that under the 141 system, because it would be a deviation from the syllabus and probably a good talking to by the chief instructor as well. In particular I have some lessons on crosswind techniques and landing techniques that I have never seen in any syllabus anywhere, I designed them, and yet are quite effective.