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RAdler 12-11-2013 09:26 AM

College Advice
 
I'm a senior from Dallas, TX, have my PPL, and am strongly considering UND or Purdue. I took visits to both schools and really liked the vibe. I met with students and instructors from UND and heard great things about both programs. I know many pilots strongly discouraged getting an aviation degree, but that's what I really want to do. The good news for me is that UND and Purdue are being generous with scholarship for me and I can afford the training. Anybody on here from UND or Purdue have advice? Thanks in advance.

BeechedJet 12-11-2013 12:58 PM

What school you choose all depends on what career route you want to pursue. Do you want to sneak into a regional with the R-ATP minimums or are you trying for something else? Find a university that has the approval for R-ATP and work your way down the list. Also just because a school is big doesn't always make it better. Find a school that fits your needs. Things like cost, lifestyle, weather, location are all factors you need to consider. Don't end up being someone miserable in school because you made your decision biased on what all the alumni told you on a message board.

Also both UND and Purdue are great schools. Obviously with scholarships the decision making is somewhat easier than what a typical high school student faces.

RAdler 12-11-2013 01:46 PM

I'm really interested in the Gateway Program UND has with JetBlue/Cape Air. I like the somewhat job security that program offers if I were to join. The R-ATP minimums are also appealing, so yes, I'm hoping to sneak into a regional with the hour waiver, best case.

kingsnake2 12-11-2013 07:52 PM

If you thought you might stay local, I work with US Aviation Academy with has a partnership with TCC and is right next to UNT. I know you said you are just looking at UND and Purdue, but figured I'd offer the idea.

For general college entrance, my advice is to get SAT or ACT scores as high as possible since a ton of the automatic and merit based scholarships will be based on these scores. I raised my score 150 points just by using the study guides on Sparknotes.com. From my experience applying with schools, they will raise your scholarship to fit your new SAT score anytime before you start. So that means even if you already have a good scholarship, you might be able to get a better one. (I go to Baylor University btw)

PerfInit 12-12-2013 02:35 AM

My $.02, based on 25 years in the industry is- Don't put all your eggs in one basket. Have a backup plan. Pursue your dream, but Get a degree in something other than aviation.

RAdler 12-12-2013 09:47 AM

I'm thinking about double-majoring in something non-aviation for that safety net PerfInit is talking about. I do plan on majoring in Commercial Aviation, but I do not know what my other major would be yet if I choose to double-major. I got accepted into both UND and Purdue and recieved generous scholarship from UND and haven't heard from Purdue about scholarship yet. That will help me decide as well. I'm also looking at OU, OK State because they're close to home.

PotatoChip 12-12-2013 10:58 AM


Originally Posted by RAdler (Post 1537626)
I know many pilots strongly discouraged getting an aviation degree, but that's what I really want to do. Anybody on here from UND or Purdue have advice? Thanks in advance.

So you're asking for us to tell us what you want to hear?
My advice is to not go to UND. It's expensive, cold and a waste of money. Oh, and it's in Grand Forks, ND. And it's cold. Do not major in Commercial Aviation. It's close to useless. Major in Economics. Or Political Science. Or Marketing.

Pay in state tuition.

But you didn't want any of that advice...

There is a BIG reason pilots keep discouraging you.

rev4life03 12-12-2013 11:42 AM

"I know many pilots strongly discouraged getting an aviation degree, but that's what I really want to do."

You think you're the only one who wanted to do nothing but fly?

Listen to those pilots and the pilots here, get a non aviation degree and get a skill/education that will help you when, not if, WHEN the economy takes another dive.

I recently spoke to a 747-400 captain who has been flying since the 70s, he told me throughout his career he had seen the economy take a dive 3 times. 1990, 2001 (9/11/01) and 2008 (housing/financial) crisis. He said finding a job was so difficult when all he had to show for it was an aeronautical science degree, he graduated from riddle.

kingsnake2 12-12-2013 02:05 PM


Originally Posted by PotatoChip (Post 1538422)
So you're asking for us to tell us what you want to hear?
My advice is to not go to UND. It's expensive, cold and a waste of money. Oh, and it's in Grand Forks, ND. And it's cold. Do not major in Commercial Aviation. It's close to useless. Major in Economics. Or Political Science. Or Marketing.

Pay in state tuition.

But you didn't want any of that advice...

There is a BIG reason pilots keep discouraging you.

Just a warning from a Finance + Economics double major, jobs in these fields are relatively thin. Especially in economics.

Economics is almost completely useless if you don't take the math classes and econometrics (at least as far as employers are concerned).

Finance is a bit better for getting a job. The really high paying ones, like IB, are few and far between but there are a fair number of decent jobs and it is a very flexible degree.

Accounting is the safest choice. There are always tons of accounting jobs, albeit sometimes quite boring. Pays well if you get into the big four though.

I LOVE economics but to get a job in economics you need to take a lot of math (think math minor at minimum). It makes a great companion to finance. Finance is quite similar to economics, just the far more practical, micro-focused side.

chrisreedrules 12-12-2013 02:50 PM

DO NOT get an aviation degree. There are some good threads going on right now in the regional forums about pay, work rules, and quality of life. Don't go into that kind of debt for an airline career with no guarantee of a shot at the majors. I did all my training debt free. Guys I know who went to Riddle and UND are on food stamps because of the crushing debt and low pay they have to look forward to for years. And don't go somewhere because of the "security of a gateway program". You won't have a hard time finding a job at the regional of your choice in the years to come if that is the path you choose.

PotatoChip 12-12-2013 06:35 PM


Originally Posted by kingsnake2 (Post 1538574)
Just a warning from a Finance + Economics double major, jobs in these fields are relatively thin. Especially in economics.

Economics is almost completely useless if you don't take the math classes and econometrics (at least as far as employers are concerned).

Finance is a bit better for getting a job. The really high paying ones, like IB, are few and far between but there are a fair number of decent jobs and it is a very flexible degree.

Accounting is the safest choice. There are always tons of accounting jobs, albeit sometimes quite boring. Pays well if you get into the big four though.

I LOVE economics but to get a job in economics you need to take a lot of math (think math minor at minimum). It makes a great companion to finance. Finance is quite similar to economics, just the far more practical, micro-focused side.

Thank you for further insight. My point wasn't necessarily major in Economics so much as something other than Commercial Aviation/Aeronautical Science.

That said, great points. Finance and Accounting are both great majors. Further, if you are math inclined, take all the extra classes and get the minor! Or double major.

Swedish Blender 12-12-2013 07:09 PM

I'll assume you know more about both flight programs than I do so I'll keep my comments to the college life.

Purdue is a Big Ten school with all the associated sports. Albeit some of their teams aren't exactly setting the sports world on fire, they were always great to see. It gets cold in the winter but probably not as bad as UND. You are a couple hours from Chicago, beaches on Lake Michigan (not great, but there), an hour from Indianapolis.

Social life is great Greek or not. Purdue is a campus of 31,000. Out of that, less than 300 are flight majors (200 when I was there but I think it went up a little). UND says it has 120 airplanes vs 16 at Purdue so I would think there are more people with big watches talking with their hands there.

It really boils down to where you feel comfortable spending 4 or more years of your life at.

chrisreedrules 12-13-2013 04:07 AM

Get an Engineering degree. My dad had a masters in Electrical Engineering and I never saw him have a hard time finding a job. I've never seen an engineer ever have a hard time finding a job period now that I think about it.

Pilotandrew 12-13-2013 06:10 AM

Or business degree! You will always have opportunities with that

RAdler 12-13-2013 09:42 AM

Thanks for the advice, everyone, I appreciate it coming from experienced people in the industry.

Captain Oval 12-13-2013 09:53 AM

Louisiana Tech.. 4ish hours from Dallas, Flight program or choose another degree and fly.. On the 1/4 system which will get you out of college quicker and it is cheaper then the other school mentioned.

Louisiana Tech University - Aviation - Welcome

JamesNoBrakes 12-13-2013 06:46 PM


Originally Posted by RAdler (Post 1537626)
I'm a senior from Dallas, TX, have my PPL, and am strongly considering UND or Purdue. I took visits to both schools and really liked the vibe. I met with students and instructors from UND and heard great things about both programs. I know many pilots strongly discouraged getting an aviation degree, but that's what I really want to do. The good news for me is that UND and Purdue are being generous with scholarship for me and I can afford the training. Anybody on here from UND or Purdue have advice? Thanks in advance.

Here's the thing, no doubt ALL of these universities are telling you that you have to get INTO THE MARKET or your degree and flying RIGHT NOW. There will NEVER EVER be a better time, the PILOT SHORTAGE is right around the corner, heck it's starting right now, you NEED to get into their aviation science program to reap the benefits of spending $150K+ to save a few thousand on experience before you can get your ATP and spend more money (or lose more money as you start working for less as you earned as a CFI when you take that first regional job).

These institutions want your money. It's not that they don't try to offer a good product or try really hard to give you a good education, but the rest of the world deems it worthless and you aren't going to start in a 747-400 out of school, so all those classes they spent teaching you about them were a waste. Most of the people I went to school with have been stuck at the regional jobs for the last 7-10 years. These jobs do not pay off or pay down the student loans.

It is far better to get a degree other than aviation science in something you like. I like plenty of things outside of aviation, even though I love aviation. I could do geology, vulcanology, medicine, engineering, all sorts of things that would be fun IMO, and then you got something besides that one-shot deal that is known as a pilot career.

If you *still* think it's a good idea to go to one of these places, ask them where their graduates are right out of school. Ask them where they are in two years. Ask them to provide you with names of recent grads that you can contact. Ask them how long it's taken for people to "flow" from that rape air to jet blue program (afaik, no one has made it yet, but I could be wrong, there might be a few finally, it's taken them years though, 5-7 I believe, not counting how long those people worked previously, there are a lot of people in those pipelines vying for those jobs). Make the school accountable, don't sit around and let them feed you crap about how you can finance it, how it might pay off, how great it's "gunna be", make them SHOW YOU how it IS. Then when they can't show how you are able to pay back your loans right out of school, tell them how that sounds.

A college degree is an investment. It shouldn't be a one-way path to indentured servitude, but that's exactly what these places are making it.

sidestep 12-13-2013 07:21 PM

You are smart for thinking ahead & asking questions like these!

I would just add that you are entering one of the best times of your life. It is important to take a 'big-picture' approach to your next step. Airline flying is great - it really is, but trust me - if you have fun in college, you will ALWAYS look back and wish you could just stay in that time forever. ENJOY IT!!! Go to college and bask in the 'college experience' - you'll be a more well-rounded person in the end, I promise.

If you are only considering UND & Purdue, Boiler-up for sure!!! But also check out Auburn, and my alma mater - Arizona State! Great flight programs, and you will have a blast! Not to mention 320 days/yr of clear blue & 22 flying weather in AZ!!

Also - Never mind any 'guaranteed job placement' propaganda - they are only as good as the economy, and with the upcoming shortage - you'll be able to go anywhere you want anyway!

Good luck!:D

DroopsN10 12-13-2013 08:19 PM

Be careful with Louisiana Tech, they're cheap but for a reason. I attended for 2 years and they changed the pro aviation program up on me while I was attending. Also flight training was outrageous there over 190$ per hour for dual if I remember correctly. I feel like I should have went with a embry riddle school if i wanted a quality degree in Aviation. Hopefully things there are better now. Good luck!

Big E 757 12-14-2013 07:49 PM

I agree, get a degree in your second favorite career field

contrail44 12-15-2013 07:20 PM

Recently finished an A.S in kinesiology. Working on my inst. Thinking about going the regional route. Will an A.S be sufficient? Don't really think the B.S is in the cards for me. Any advice would be appreciated.

rev4life03 12-16-2013 05:23 AM


Originally Posted by contrail44 (Post 1540606)
Recently finished an A.S in kinesiology. Working on my inst. Thinking about going the regional route. Will an A.S be sufficient? Don't really think the B.S is in the cards for me. Any advice would be appreciated.

When you say regional route, you mean stay there forever? I wouldn't do that...

crewdawg 12-16-2013 06:41 AM

I'm not going to say an aviation degree is totally useless. I tried to switch to business but hated the classes and wasn't doing well, so I switched back. I've see plenty of guys w/ aviation degrees get good jobs outside of aviation. One of my friends just got hired at the top business consulting firm in the nation with a bachelors that has nothing to do with business. Here is an article on successful people and their degrees.

Successful Liberal Arts Majors - Business Insider

Stay in the south! Living in the Tundra sucks (just got done shoveling the driveway)! Plus the girls don't grow their winter coats and go into hiding during the winter, in the South. Go to Arizona State, enjoy 360 days/yr of sunshine, hot girls, a location that has tons to do, and major in whatever you want. Trust me, you will thank me later! If you don't major in aviation, go to the a local FBO for your flying. Local FBOs will save you tons of $$$$.

Also, if you have any thought of the military, consider joining the Air Guard. It paid for all my college, and now I fly for both the Guard and the airlines. Best thing I've ever done!

Goodluck.

contrail44 12-16-2013 04:24 PM


Originally Posted by rev4life03 (Post 1540740)
When you say regional route, you mean stay there forever? I wouldn't do that...

Well if I ever got called to the majors I'de obviously go, but from what it sounds like there's no chance that would happen with only an associates. What's wrong with being a lifer at, say Skywest. Doesn't seem too bad, but hey what do i know! 😜

azuresky 12-16-2013 04:43 PM

I agree with crewdawg. Air Guard is the best thing going....if you find the right unit.

PotatoChip 12-16-2013 11:08 PM


Originally Posted by contrail44 (Post 1541098)
Well if I ever got called to the majors I'de obviously go, but from what it sounds like there's no chance that would happen with only an associates. What's wrong with being a lifer at, say Skywest. Doesn't seem too bad, but hey what do i know! 😜

Aim low, achieve low.

M696 12-17-2013 06:08 AM


Originally Posted by PotatoChip (Post 1541240)
Aim low, achieve low.

Depends on your goals, I have a 2 year degree, Captain on a Global Express. Pay and lifestyle suit me fine, never wanted to be an airline pilot.

The Italian 12-17-2013 06:34 AM

I am also in the process of looking for a degree, which due to my personal situation has to be done online. I have narrowed down the choice to Aeronautics (ERAU, UVU or somewhere else) and BS in Finance.
I would like to specialize in Human Factors and Aviation Safety, but I also have a kind of interested in the financial markets and I wouldn't mind at all to be a trader on the side even when flying. The point is that there is no degree or whatsoever in trading and sometimes even a degree in Computer Science is recommended (algorithmic trading). Trading is a job you learn whilst doing it and there are many traders with no degree in Economics or Finance or BA.
I am contemplating Computer Science as well, but I am leaning more and more towards a degree in Aeronautics with minor in Safety and later specialize in Human Factors and ERAU Worldwide seems to be the best choice out there; that's what really interests me.

Just out of curiosity, does anybody know other online degree programs either in Aeronautics, Safety, Human Factors or Finance?

As you can see from my username, I am European and European pilots usually don't have a degree. It is something new to me and so am looking into options that are doable for me.

billythekid 12-17-2013 01:27 PM

A few random thoughts.
I agree that National Guard is a great setup. The networking is second to none. If you go on the airline route, when it gets time to sit reserve you can make better money and even out the schedule by doing Guard work . It's a win-win.
That said--Go to a good college and fly on the side, even if at the local FBO. Purdue's a great school (UND too). Both have great networks to build off in future. In the grand scheme of the things, so will the person who got to a regional at a young age, did online courses and will have 5 recommendations at most airlines.
Look at all the flow-through ab-initio concepts out there. For someone starting out tomorrow (barring a big economic issue), it shouldn't be a stretch to be at a "major" in 6-10 years. There's that many retirements. That's the factor that wasn't around in the late 90's-2000. Regardless of what the 10% say, you need a degree, and aviation doesn't care what it's in/where it's from. This isn't a law firm/investment bank.

Swa wannabe 12-17-2013 04:27 PM

I would strongly suggest getting a degree. Than you have and never have to worry about it again.

OneFifty 12-17-2013 05:25 PM

Whatever school you decide on, I would highly recommend checking out NIFA. Great organization that will help you become a better aviator and meet some great people!

A.FLOOR 12-17-2013 08:03 PM

What about minoring in something like business along-side your aviation science degree? Would that make you more competitive, or perhaps act as a backup incase flying doesn't work out? Or is it worthless to minor?

PotatoChip 12-17-2013 11:51 PM


Originally Posted by pilotnicco (Post 1541855)
What about minoring in something like business along-side your aviation science degree? Would that make you more competitive, or perhaps act as a backup incase flying doesn't work out? Or is it worthless to minor?

I wouldn't call it worthless. It's certainly better than nothing.
It may help you if you one day want to work in management.

But even better... Major in Business with a minor in Aviation related studies.

outaluckagain 12-18-2013 01:13 PM


Originally Posted by PotatoChip (Post 1541924)
I wouldn't call it worthless. It's certainly better than nothing.
It may help you if you one day want to work in management.

But even better... Major in Business with a minor in Aviation related studies.

What I am seeing here is some good discussion. A degree is certainly a must when you want to be a pilot. The good part is that you can finish a BS online, which means that you can continue flying.
When I finished my BS, I had to wait to appy at the regionals until I finished due to the class attendence requirements. With online you can take your PC on trips without having to go to class. Kill 2 birds with 1 stone.
A minor in business is a good idea as far as I am concerned. Aviation safety also comes to mind. Human factors seems to be emerging.
Try contacting all colleges with an aviation program. Do not allow yourself to be lured or pressured. Give the total cost a very close look paying special attention to fees.

dckozak 12-18-2013 02:12 PM

This is aimed mainly at the high schoolers lurking on here. Do the "real" college thing, don't sweat the flying, do it when you can, when you can afford it and do it right! ;) If your older and trying to "catch up" I can understand the online degree option but otherwise enjoy your youth (see post about schooling in Arizona) party,(not too hard, no DUI, or arrests!!) , get good grades. The crappy job market will be waiting for you when you get out, its not going anywhere. :(

crewdawg 12-21-2013 05:23 AM


Originally Posted by dckozak (Post 1542312)
This is aimed mainly at the high schoolers lurking on here. Do the "real" college thing, don't sweat the flying, do it when you can, when you can afford it and do it right! ;) If your older and trying to "catch up" I can understand the online degree option but otherwise enjoy your youth (see post about schooling in Arizona) party,(not too hard, no DUI, or arrests!!) , get good grades. The crappy job market will be waiting for you when you get out, its not going anywhere. :(

2! You have the rest of your life to work.

Flyboyxc91 12-22-2013 05:16 AM

Hey bud, I was just in your shoes three and a half years ago when I was graduating high school. I DID NOT go get an aviation degree because I always wanted to get a very solid education outside of aviation to fall back on... IMOP pilots DO NOT need an aviation degree to FLY an airplane.. they only need a degree in many cases today to get in a door. So do yourself a favor, knock out two birds with one stone by getting your degree and having it actually be marketable outside the cockpit because my two degrees certainly are and I was also a PPL etc which I basically flew more than enough already to not care about any FAA minimum 500hr breaks, thats not even very much time at all.. To each his own and I commend you for having the passion! See you in the air.

Av8r1656 12-22-2013 06:23 AM

I'm going to college for ATC in case pilot doesn't work out, something too fall back on.

cubbies4life 12-22-2013 06:34 AM

Biggest advice I can give is Don't go into debt. Choose your college based on cost first. Where your Aviation degree (as others have said... bad idea) is from won't matter. Being 100k in debt will.

I didn't get my bachelors degree right away. I finished my flight training, ran out of money, found work flying caravans saved money and am just now finishing my bachelors degree in Computer science online while flying a beechjet. I took only $5000 in student loans just to finish my last semester of flight training. I worked all throughout college and had a nice savings when I started. As others have said, go to college and enjoy it. I spent 3 years at a regular university that had flight training, had a ton of fun, met some good people, and it was the best time of my life.

I will be 29 when I finish my bachelors degree but I will have 0 debt. No car payment, no student loan payment, no credit card payment. This is what will make you successful in this career and life in general.

bgmann 12-22-2013 06:36 AM

Deleted.

Oops you were asking for education advice.


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