Steep turns (#$%&)
 

Hello everyone...

I am Stage II planning cross-country right now...everything is coming along great but steep turns (45 degree) are proving difficult for me. My instructor doesn't articulate the procedure very well for me, he just says "stay ahead of the plane, stay ahead of the plane," as I lose more than 100 feet of altitude and thereby fail a future checkride.

We are in a 172 classic (P model) and any tips for those who have it dialed in would be greatly appreciated as I can't seem to find much info on the procedure.

RPM, airspeed, trim, back pressure, etc details are appreciated!

Mike

First thing you need to make sure you are doing is looking outside, if you are looking inside at the instruments to much, you will find yourself behind the airplane. Second thing i recommend is before you start the maneuver, trim the airplane for level hands off flight at your training cruise speed, with the power set. once you start the turn to which ever direction add a small amount of power, 200 rpm extra works well. Get the airplane established in the turn and look outside 95% of the time. When you are looking outside note were the horizon is crossing some point in you line of sight, find a bolt, anything really, some sort of reference on the plane where the horizon is going through. This is what you use to get your pitch information, if the horizon moves about that point you are descending, if the horizon goes below this point you are climbing
And every once in a while scan the instruments to check that everything is still were it should be, airspeed, alt, bank angle, then look back outside
Hope this helps

Here are a few tips I always give to my students:

1) Look outside.
2) Look outside.
3) Look outside.

4) Listen to the engine, if it sounds louder - you are descending.
if it sounds quieter - you are climbing.
5) There is no such thing as "over banking tendency" I can explain if you wish, but what this means is - when you are established in the 45 degree bank, the yoke should be pretty much level (not turned in either direction)
If it is not level, you are probably incorrectly using the rudder pedals.

6) Add power rolling in, reduce power rolling out, don't look at the RPM gauge to do this, just listen.

7) Know your tendencies, know what you tend to do incorrectly and make an effort to not do them.

I am over doing this.... so...

To keep it simple, have your instructor cover up the gauges for the whole maneuver once on altitude and airspeed. While doing the maneuver focus on what the plane feels like, sounds like etc. Find the "picture" that holds altitude and the bank and use small corrections to keep that picture. When done correctly its a beautiful maneuver.

Good luck!

Clearing Turn, pick a visual reference for your start and end heading
Make sure airspeed is about 10kts indicated < than Va. In level, trimmed out, unaccelerated flight. Start the turn with this power setting.
Pick a direction, and roll. Do not pitch up, do not push down.
Passing 30 degrees add about 100 or so RPM, pull back slightly
Verify 45 degrees and LOOK OUTSIDE
Stare at the horizon and use your "peripheral" (bottom) vision to note the position of the nose of the plane.
LOOK STRAIGHT AHEAD, not in the direction of turn! (disclaimer: keep an eye out for traffic)
Gently find what pitch attitude will keep you level, AND HOLD IT.
20 or so degrees before your start heading, gently and slowly roll level and slowly reduce power to your original power setting. Time the roll out to end on your start heading.
Steep turn complete.

My students would ALWAYS look at the instruments too much. You should be looking outside, straight ahead at the horizon, 95% of the time you are doing the maneuver.

While staring at the horizon line (outside), it is easy to tell pitch trends of the airplane. If the nose starts creeping up, fix it. If it starts going down, fix it.

Listen. More noise = down ya go. Less noise - you're going up.

Practice practice practice :)

Good luck!

An old trick in a 172 is to move the pitch trim wheel two turns nose up as you roll in...this will prevent having to hold a lot of backpressure, which can goof you up.

By two turns, I mean grab the wheel at the top, and move it down as far as it will go without letting go of it. Repeat.

The only catch is that you have to un-trim it when the turn is finished.

I may be weird, but I always work better by reference to the instruments...I look outside just enough so as not to annoy the examiner...

Thats the way I was taught....It works very nicely...

-LAFF

If you get stuck in a descent roll out just a degree or two of bank. This should be just enough that you can correct your descent without pulling alot but, not so much that you can be accused of not doing a steep turn. Then once you're back on altitude go back to the AOB you're looking for. Likewise, if you're climbing a little you can overbank by a degree or two rather than pushing over too much. Of course this is not how you should plan on flying a steep turn, but a technique to correct for.... NOT STAYING AHEAD OF THE AIRCRAFT!;)

I think everybody covered everything I would say. As far as looking outside. Pick a point on the aircraft relative to the horizon that keeps you at altitude when doing your turn. It's different for everybody, and may differ slightly for each aircraft. Things I like to use are rivets on the cowl, the prop spinner, the corner of the cowl, bolts on the glareshield, compass, etc. Find this point, but remember to keep your eyes moving. 90% outside, 10% inside. You should come inside fast enough to check your altitude, coordination and bank.

If you set the seat up the same way every time (which you should take a minute before start to do every time) and find a spot for the left turn, and a spot for the right turn it will be the same every time. The advantage to looking outside can not be understated. You'll see the trend change much faster.

If this techniques dont work for you (its sometimes hard to read something and then duplicate it in the airplane) you can always ask your instructor to do a steep turn, and articulate what he is doing and why, while he is in the turn. It may help to see someone else do it.

The hardest part of the steep turn is going to be getting setup in the turn, once you are in the turn and trimmed, it is really just a matter of making small corrections.

Try out some of these techniques and let us know how you did.

Oh yeah, not sure if anyone mentioned this, but if you scan the VSI it can serve as an early-warning indicator of an impending vertical deviation.