Flight planning in Class Bravo
 

Hey all, student here with another question for you (i plan on asking my instructor as well but wanted to ask here while the question is fresh in my mind).

What kind of precautions would I need to take if I were to fly a plane to an airport which is a small Class D airport, but falls within the veil of a larger airport's class B veil?

For instance, the airport i was thinking of was TEB, New Jersey. However, the class B veil from JFK seems to extend very far out.

Assuming that I plan on trying to avoid all altitudes which are shown by the sectional (i think its from 3,000-7,000ft around where I'm going, the class b veil anyways), would it be wise to call JFK ahead of time and let them know the day i'm going, or my plan in general?

Thanks for any info!

I would not call them. Your safest bet would be VFR flight following or advisories. If you didn't want to communicate within that disaster of an airspace then simply abide by the class B shelf limits which around TEB looks to be 70/15 immediately surrounding TEB.

Are you planning to fly to TEB? The reason I ask is that it doesn't fit the description of small class D airport. Granted I've only flown cabin class twin (414) and larger into there but that airport is probably one of the bigger pain in the a..... class D airports I know of.

Regarding flight following, the controllers there are great but may not have time for you. If they do, they are nice but not patient. You can't miss radio calls and must be concise, clear, and brief.

In my opinion, a terrible airport, area to fly to unless you are based there. I'm not even sure id encourage a commercial pilot working towards a CFI to go there.

I learned to fly in my home of Orlando, at executive (KORL) we were under a 1600 foot bravo shelf. In addition, Disney is a permanent TFR just to the west that you have to stay over 3000 feet, then drop down to under 2000 on the other side approaching ORL. It was always easier just to call Orlando approach, get a squawk code and Bravo Clearance, and just descend in normally. Workload permitting for the controller of course but sometimes it's so much easier.

Yeah, I actually did plan on flying there eventually. Maybe I will choose another airport close-by though if TEB is that much of a PITA. My wife wants to go to a certain spot in NJ and I figured once I get my license I could fly us there. So I just googled airports closest to the center and TEB was closest. I think there were a few others. Unfortunately they all will probably fall in that giant circle of vomit on my sectional.

Some advice I gave my students which I wish I had when I was new was to take my time before flying friend/family/loved ones. A nice quick morning or evening (also spring/fall) hop to a local airport for a burger is a great start. I simply did not have the experience to deliver a great "experience" to my passengers as a new pilot. In hindsight I wish I had waited till maybe 100-200 hours or so. I got into situations such as complex airspace, turbulence, winds etc that I simply didn't have the experience to avoid/navigate until later on.

With all this being said..TEB is certainly not impossible but would require A LOT of homework. I would certainly want a VFR flight plan or at the least, flight following. It is busy and the airspace can be complex. I've got a few hours now and I'd be hesitant to plan a trip into there with my wife in a light single engine.

I'd rather fly into Boston Logan or even JFK before TEB. This site definitely will have some local and/or TEB experts though who could give you some first hand info over the handful of times I've been in there.

By the sound of it, I'd rather just find an alternate airport lol. Not sounding too good there. I'm really glad I asked first.

TEB is one of the busiest GA airports in the country. With that said, don't avoid it just because of that fact, rather your first trip or so, have another pilot or CFI that has been there go with you.

I have been there in turboprop aircraft, never any piston, but I'm from the midwest and no reason otherwise. It is manageable, just be prepared to have a lot thrown at you. If you can, do a practice run on a simulator or something of that nature.

100's of tidbits of advice, but I encourage you definatley try it.

Showing off to the wife as a new pilot going into Teterboro is a bad idea. Leave it to us that loathe going in there on a daily basis.
If your piloting skills can do an ILS approach to runway 6, circling to runway 1, with howling winds at 270, manage to avoid the towers next to the stadium, while you have a NetJets Global on your A$$, then have fun with it.....There is Morristown nearby.

Unless you are really on your game and can keep that Cessna at 140 kias until a one mile final, do everyone a favor and avoid TEB. Unless you plan to go on a Saturday, when it is usually a ghost town. As mentioned above, TEB is no place for a novice.
Having said that, a Saturday or Sunday morning trip with an experienced CFI could be a great experience.

thinking maybe I will try Morristown. The only reason I was thinking TEB was because according to google maps it was the closest to a landmark she wanted to visit. I believe Morristown may have been second though.

If I did go, it'd be on a weekend, but even still I'd rather a less busy airport. I was actually just at bradley international recently and the taxiing there confused me a lot, so simple is better for right now.


First order of business though, I need to pass my darn test! This friday actually! getting nervous. Instructor says i'm ready, but there's nothing like the nice comfort of turning to your right and asking what to do sometimes.

I'm not trying to be picky and I'm sure your instructor will correct you.

There is no such thing as a Class B veil. There is Class B airspace and the mode C veil and they are not the same thing, although they are found together.

Within the mode C veil, you are required to have a transponder, but you may not necessarily be within Class B airspace, and consequently don't necessarily require a clearance.

Whereas in Class B airspace, you are required to have a clearance and a transponder as well and you are most likely within the mode C veil. There are some class B airspace which are large enough to extend beyond the mode C veil.

Just a minor technicality. Enjoy your training and flying your first pax.

Don't apologize for being picky bruhaha lol, I need to learn everything I can.

I appreciate you pointing it out.

Thank you very much!

Evamodel100, I want to emphasize a good point that has been brought up; don't be adverse to bringing an instructor along on occasion, after you have received your certificate. Remember they have likely trained you to a minimum set of standards, basically to pass an exam. Many instructors wish they could spend a little more time, post exam. This is a time when they can finish the job and get more in depth with subjects such as; high density areas/airports, real short field operations w/real obstacles, high density altitude work/mountain flying, basic aerobatics, Etc. As has been said, grab an experienced CFI and if possible one who is also a corporate pilot, and go see how things are done at Teterboro...

I've worked at both the class D underneath and the class B towers. I've also flight instructed at both. First, have a map (you won't believe the calls I've recieved from pilots who don't). Second look at the map. Preferably as part of your preflight. Check out the altitudes required to remain outside the class B. Look for landmarks and obstructions. Some charts actually have recommended VFR flight paths on the back. Depending on you comfort level with ATC, you may want to just avoid the class B and talk only to the class D tower. Entrance into the class B really depends on traffic flow at the time and place you want to transit. At some of the busiest ones that means probably not. You can still ask for and receive advisories outside it. Admit you are a student or a new pilot. If we can we will give you a lot of slack, and perhaps some advice (if you ask). The fact that you are already thinking and planning leads me to believe that you will be just fine.

Lots of good advice here, thanks guys. I think that I may do what some suggested and bring a CFI first. Mine is pretty cool so I know he wouldn't mind going.

With a bit of homework I think it would be fine. I used to have a lot of confidence with other airports seeing as when I did my cross countries I tried to pick some larger airports (RME, HVN, and some others I thought were cool) to get some more challenging practice.

However, my last and final x-country I did I went to Bradley International. Taxiing into the FBO area was fine, but taxiing back out to the runway was an absolute disaster.

To begin with, it was really weird they had me take-off. When I landed, I was directed in on the same longer runway jets land on (24). However, when it came for takeoff, they had me use runway 33. This was the first thing that confused me, because to taxi there you go in the opposite direction and from a ground standpoint it almost looked like i was taking off in the opposite direction. So naturally my instinct was to taxi back where I came from.

Anyways, when ground gave me taxi instructions, I asked him for progressive instructions since I was a student pilot. He ended up telling me to take a right when I think he meant to take a left because he started yelling at me, telling me I was going the wrong way, etc.

Anyways, I went right back into the FBO ramp and my confidence was a crushed. I felt horrible gumming up the channel. Anyways, after a brief look at my diagram i realized it was right ********* in front of the ramp and I literally just had to go straight like 20 ft. But because I am still inexperienced, a lot of what ground told me I just either didn't understand, or was too quick to take in.

But long story short, taxiing is a big challenge for me. I really want to get proficient at not having to always ask for "progressive instructions'. I guess that will just come with homework and an airport diagram. sorry for the rant, but man that day was a real confidence killer.

If you don't have confidence in taxi instructions, you have no business at a busy airport.

If you don't have confidence in reading back instructions, you have no business at a busy airport or in busy airspace.

If you don't have confidence in asking for clarification, and let a controller's attitude get you upset to the point of stopping, you have no business in busy airspace.

As others have said, having a situation like this right after you get your private and have you wife with you for the first time isn't a good idea. Practice the hard stuff alone, or with a CFI and go on local flights you're comfortable with for the first couple times with your wife.

I did fly to TEB once, but a very loooong time ago, and it was in a piston single. Some observations:

1. I don't believe TEB Tower will take you in unless your first contact is with the NY TRACON/Approach Control. The frequency that usually handles TEB arrivals is 127.6 (EWR Area/MUGZY Sector). The reason they need you to talk to them first is because that Sector handles the sequencing for the airport, and the majority of their arrivals are turbines with approach speeds over 100 KIAS. Of course, contact the NY Approach frequency appropriate to your direction of arrival (found on the Sectional/Class B chart), and advise them that you are landing TEB. They'll hand you off as you get closer to the appropriate sectors, and finally you'll be talking on 127.6. If you are coming from the west, you may as well try 127.6 once you're within 40-50 miles of the field. If that's not yet the appropriate frequency, they'll give you the correct one until you actually are in their airspace.

2. Thankfully, the taxiways are not overly complex at TEB, but do spend some quality time becoming intimately familiar with the layout, and where all the FBOs are located. Also pay attention to any runway hotspots (depicted on JEPPs, not sure if they're in the Airport/Facility Directory).

3. TEB is not cheap. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but parking/handling/landing charges may push $100, and I'd imagine their AVGAS is not cheap, either. Check out AirNav for more info on FBOs as well as user reviews. Some FBOs are DEFINITELY more piston friendly than others.

4. If you are not well practiced at ATC Comms, especially Class B, you may want to get some practice, first. TEB can be very busy at times, and relatively quiet at others. If you can somehow find out what time of day would be considered off-peak for TEB, that'll definitely yield a less hectic interaction with ATC. Hell, even flying into ATL or DFW is a breeze if you're arriving at 2am and are just about the only plane in the airspace.

5. For a preview, check out liveatc.net and listen to NY Approach on 127.6. and TEB Tower on 119.5. Sit at the computer and keep it on the entire time you're there, even doing other stuff. This will perhaps give you the best insight as to whether you'll be comfortable when you go live on the frequency.

U.S. Class D Airport and ARTCCC Feeds | Live Air Traffic Control Audio Feeds | LiveATC.net Scroll down to KTEB Tower

Frequency Search Results: 127.6 | LiveATC.net Scroll down to KEWR NY App (Satellites)

Don't be discouraged if the internet audio is choppy. The source is someone's antenna, perhaps barely within reception of the transmitters. While you're at it, you may want want to listen to other EWR or LGA frequencies to get an idea of what NY Approach sounds/feels like.



6. If any part of this discourages you, Caldwell (KCDW) is 10 miles west. Can be busy with weekend warriors, but is generally way less intense than TEB. It's also a little bit closer than MMU, and I'd imagine a bit cheaper.

Good luck!

I've only been into TEB once, but that airport is a cluster. Also, I flew in a small turboprop, but what I recall was that the ramp fee was crazy high and they charged us by the hour for parking :eek:.

Teterboro makes Bradley look like Pit.

In simpler terms... Bradley is the freshman team and Teterboro is varsity.

Lol, and I guess that makes Newark the pro team?

Newark is no issue. Its the big brother. Teterboro works around Newark, not the other way around. Heck, id choose EWR over TEB.

Well a crazy ramp fee doesn't match my needs. I want to be able to fly there, rent a car, and spend the latter part of the afternoon there (without shelling out hundreds of dollars for a ramp fee).

Thanks again all.

Check out the reviews on airnav.com. Some FBOs at TEB may be more reasonable. Do your research.

If not, CDW to the west is no doubt cheaper. Don't know how easy it would be to rent a car from there, though. There's also MMU, which is probably somewhere between TEB and CDW in terms of fees.

Just north of CDW is another field called Lincoln Park -- N07. Extremely tiny runway (like 2100x40), but it should be the cheapest in the area.

well it looks like Meridian got outstanding reviews.

I have final check-ride tomorrow and if I get my PPL I need to do an additional check-ride in whatever aircraft i'm going to rent afterwards. Seeing as I need to do that, I asked if my instructor would be willing to do that check-ride while also going to TEB and he said he would love to. I'm sure I'll feel much more comfortable after visiting with him.

Especially since I'll then see the layout, and where the FBO is.

Thanks guys.