I completed the ATP 90 day course last year coming in with my private pilot, 125 hrs TT, 25hrs PIC XC. I borrowed $55,000 (at that time the program was $49,995 so borrowed additional funds to pay for check rides, housing, etc).

Examiner fees in my area were fairly inexpensive at $400. I passed each check ride on my 1st attempt except CFI school. Total cost for check rides was $400 x 6 (PVTME, INT, COMMME, COMMSE, CFISE, CFII) = $2400 + $1050 ($700 + $350 recheck CFIME) = $3450. Additional flight time in the Seminole for CFI recheck was charged at a rate of $275/hr because I had made a commitment to attend Standardization school (Standz) otherwise it would have been $475/hr.

I had 2 instructors during my course. Both were extremely knowledgeable and cared about the job they were doing. Thanks to extensive ground given by my 2nd instructor I was over prepared for my COMMME oral. It's not all good times however. You need to study and work for what you are trying to accomplish. There is a ton of material to learn and a short time to become proficient in the aircraft. I took and passed 5 written tests (INT, COMM, FIA, FOI, FII) and 2 non-required tests (IGI, ATP). I was mistakenly told by another student that having my IGI done would make the CFI initial oral easier - it does not :)

Attended Standz. One thing I was unprepared for was you are responsible for transportation to/from Florida and your own rental car for Standz. If you rent from the Jacksonville airport the cost is $350/wk from Enterprise. If you trade the car in for the exact make/model at an off airport location the cost was $250/wk. ATP pays for your housing while you attend Standz and you are paid $1500/mo prorated daily. First week of Standz is classroom. Second week is call center while you wait for your training/evaluation flights. I had 2 Cessna 172 training flights and 1 eval flight. I then had 1 Seminole training flight and 1 eval flight. Total time in Jacksonville was just short of 3 weeks. I spent 6 days in the call center working 8hr shifts. When you talk to someone in the call center it will most likely be an instructor candidate. People get stuck in the call center when there's no place to assign them. I also suspect undesirable people are left in the call center so they eventually quit...

When I committed to Standz I chose a training center location which I was guaranteed immediately. Upon finishing Standz I reported to my training center within a week and began instructing. People going to Standz through the winter months will likely not have their 1st choice of training location (or anyplace at all) because it's winter and there is less demand for instructors. Once the weather improves and more prospective students arrive the choice of training center for instructors will become easier. If a location is tagged as "Available within 4 months or Less" you can select that location and as soon as a slot opens up you will be transferred there. Regardless, you will be transferred there by the promised date - even if there are no students for you...

We are paid $1000/mo retainer, offered housing for $300/mo, and are paid $7.50/hr flight time ($12.50/hr for self-paced students), $100 bonus per first time check ride pass, and some other things like eval flights, sims, etc have small bonuses). That first time check ride bonus has a big caveat though. You split it with other instructors who flew that student. So if you inherit a student who was already flown 12hrs by another instructor and you fly them the other 4hrs for a particular check ride you split the bonus (in this example 75% would go to the other instructor). It's such a small amount of money to begin with it's not worth complaining about but it's important to understand when making a budget. So in an average month for me we have $1000/mo retainer + $375 flight time (50hrs * $7.50/hr) + $75 FTD (10hrs simulator * $7.50hr) + $100 check ride bonuses (fractional amounts added together) + $20 eval flight = $1570 gross - federal/state/worker comp/FICA taxes - $300 housing (a good deal) - $700 student loan payment - $50/mo supplies (books, stuff to help you instruct) = very little left to live on. The plus side is what the flight time is worth. Locally I can rent a single engine Cessna-172 180hp for $100/hr and a Seminole for $450/hr with fuel surcharge so that's what the flight time is worth for me. My 50 hour average currently breaks down to 40 single engine and 10 multi but this will flip as my students get more time in the Seminole.

What is it like to work for ATP? I enjoy instructing and love flying. Most of the people I deal with from corporate (flight Ops, finance, maintenance) are fun to chat with and I know they are nice people (having met them when in Jacksonville). If I have a maintenance concern I flag the plane and usually hear back from maintenance within a few hours and then the plane is checked/fixed/whatever is needed. Managers, however, are unrealistic about what our relationship actually is - I'm an independent contractor. It should mean I have the freedom so set my schedule and do my job without being told exactly how to do it. I'm sure there are lazy instructors here and there that are ruining it for the rest of us forcing corporate to crack the whip. This is the main thing that ruins the experience of instructing for me and it is debatable whether the pros outweigh the cons. If/when I find the cons are winning I'll take my services private knowing it will be tough to find many hours. It's a choice we have to make.

When I graduated Standz as a new CFI I technically knew what I was doing but it was overwhelming being turned loose with students. It was trial by fire. My students' 1st time pass/fail rate for their check rides is decent for a new instructor I think - 6 pass / 2 fail. My 2 fails were prepared but they acknowledged they made boneheaded mistakes - CFII oral "What minimums do you need to file an approach into airport such and such?" Student - "1.2.3 rule" Gah. "What minimums do you need to shoot the approach?" Student - "1.2.3 rule" Pulling my hair out (you can shoot the approach with 0/0 you just can't descend below DH unless you meet the requirements of 91.175). CFISE flight - student chose to fly eights on pylons in 30kt winds. Unsurprisingly the student had a difficult time maintaining pivotal altitude (ground speed squared divided by 11.3 - with a 30kt wind ground speed will vary by 60kts!!! Difference in pivotal altitude of over 1000 feet). The fact that it wasn't perfect wasn't the problem. The fact that the student didn't add power when trying to climb and almost stalled the airplane at 900ft agl ended the check ride. So we dealt with those issues and I updated my training accordingly.

I've tried to cover the main areas but if I missed something please ask.

Oops I said the eights on pylons student was doing his CFISE but it was COMMSE :)

I was in the same shoes as you guys. And I read the same stuff you're reading. And I made the same choice: ATP 0-Hero. Here's my story:

Maintenance and weather and a pi$$ poor instructor just there to build time meant private didn't happen any faster than the students I see at my local school.

I can count the number of hours of ground instruction I received on one hand from private single and multi, through instrument, commercial multi and single. I was bounced around between 5 different instructors after solo. Some were great, some were not.

I know it seems like a great idea, a great value, and it sort of is for the time. But it's a black stain on your application for better CFI gigs that you'll crave after you get tired of your terrible QOL, and possibly for corporate flying later.

I was denied a job because of it.

ATP is just out there to make money, we know this, but you're treated like garbage because you already prepaid; you can't just leave. That's the fundamental difference. I bet there are a bunch of mom and pop schools that suck out there, and if I found myself in one I would leave. That's not a realistic option at ATP; they can and will screw you if you decide to leave. Good luck getting any of that 65-75k back. And the reviews are mixed, to put it lightly.

For private through commercial multi they used an joke of a DPE and I passed everything. I had to learn everything for real when the CFI ride came around.

For my cross country flights they used students to fly broken airplanes to MX hubs. I was encouraged more than once to break FARs to make it happen.

I was in a CFI initial class that was just 8 hours of powerpoints for 2 weeks in a row in a different location. Checkride dates were assigned after my CFI instructor used up all my time, despite calls to corporate asking if I could save some or all of it. I knew it would likely be a problem because the dates the DPEs were assigning us were often months out, and by the time it rolls around those steep turns aren't quite a tight as they once were...

The CFI initial rides were all done in the seminole out of FXE. I'd never flown out of there. Have fun doing one of the hardest check rides of your life in a new, complicated airport sitting in the middle of new, complicated airspace.

I busted in the oral. My fault, sure, but 2 months between training and the ride didn't help. I bit the bullet, cancelled my program that night, had a beer on the beach and left for a local FBO back home. I then passed the CFI-A initial in a 172-RG for way less $$$.

We're all special snowflakes, but the truth is I made it further than about half my classmates. The completion rates for everything through CFI, MEI, and CFII are abysmal. For most students the ground is nonexistent. And you can't leave without taking a substantial financial hit. Some instructors care, some don't, and you have no choice who you wind up with.

Best of luck if you decide to enroll. You'll need it.

Well now that you are a CFI, just know US Aviation Academy is hiring.

You can PM me for the recruiter's name, number, and email if you would like.

And perhaps some time at US Aviation could give you a perspective of how flight training is different here. We emphasize professionalism. No doubt it is a for-profit business, but professionals in it for the long haul do not have unsafe practices or unfair policies.

For any other instructor, leaving their hometown airport wouldn't be a problem. For an ATP instructor who has been handicapped throughout their entire training, they better not leave the state they are flying in, let alone their home airport.

Could you elaborate on the handicap? Because I wasn't aware that I had one.

Dude don't take offense, I know nothing about you and therefore I wouldn't refer to you personally. But come on they barely even let their students solo, hell they even started that private/instrument program just to prolong when a student had to solo a plane.

Not sure why you're defending them.

I was a student at ATP, and unless someone was unable to secure financing anywhere else I would never advise anyone go to ATP, but FWIW they let me take the seminole as a private pilot under IFR w another student across the US. I flew out of LZU and PDK in Atlanta, and we traveled to MS, TX, LA, KY, SC, NC, IN, and even Chicago during my 50 hour block. I logged landings at too many airports to count during my time there.

I could go on for hours about ATP. I wouldn't say I was defending them directly, but you're making it seem like all they do is make ****ty pilots that don't fly outside of a 100nm ring around their 'home' airport. I flew out of state all of the time.

I've also written plenty of students off to solo at that company.

I do believe you have something personal against them which is understandable, you probably have a story like many others in which the program didn't turn out like you thought it would be. I've seen it happen plenty of times and I didn't like it. I'm sorry it turned out that way, but I will say, be careful putting a blanket when you say instructors at ATP aren't good. I've met a LOT of good pilots at that company.

No doubt, I've met some good ones there. Never was a student there though (thank God). My beef with them is their MO, how they treat their customers and their general bare bones instruction to the minimum requirement of knowledge.