Thoughts on iPad for VFR Flight...
 

So I'm renting 152's from a fairly large international flight school to build time. One of the policies there is that I have to have to use pilotage (lakes, cities,etc.) for my cross countries, in spite of me having a iPad with a external GPS.

Personally, I find this to be a hassle because IF the iPad did fail, I would still have a paper sectional for backup. I just don't see the point in wasting time using a plotter and calculating MH for even a short 20nm flight...not to mention I would be on FF and could ask ATC for a radar vector if it came down to that.

I just want to see y'alls view on this.

Pilotage is flying off the sectional using lakes, cities, etc to figure out where you are on the map. As far as my understanding of the term, you're fine navigating map to ground without having measured courses. That being said, makes sense if they are going to have a blanket policy for all cross countries (short and long) to make sure renters demonstrate they know where they're going and how much gas they're going to burn etc. Gotta think that flight schools make their rules for the lowest common denominator in renters and not the experienced pilot.

Reminds me of the time an F-15 pilot ran a 152 out of gas.

In general (directed at everybody) if you have a problem with navigating the "old way" if someone asks you to please get out of aviation now.

Assuming you have at least a PPL, this seems a bit strange as a blanket policy. Typically as a student you should learn and be versed in Pilotage (Landmarks) and Dead Reckoning skills (Time/Speed/Distance) navigation. Most VFR X countries merge these methods (ETA to the landmark, Etc.) Was there something that prompted this, such as an instructor noticing an overreliance on the GPS? Additionally, What if... FF dropped you or you had a communications or even total electrical failure. All these and more will eventually happen, I pretty much guarantee it.

^^^THIS... If your all about your GPS then fine, but I wanna fly with people that I know has all the knowledge of the backup to the backup because thats truly why they say "A good pilot is always learning" and if you didn't learn that then I'm not so sure what you did... Accident Chain

If you are a VFR-only pilot, use the windows (that's why you learned to fly, isn't it? The view?) and a watch, along with a map. Save the GPS for the IFR flying.

One day, you will yearn for the opportunity to fly a plane that only requires sunglasses and a headset.:cool:

So true. I want to fly somewhere at 500' using a sectional, my eyes, and a clock.

My point is that I prefer to go direct. I feel like if the iPad did fail, I still would have a sectional to look at, VOR,etc. I don't see the need in plotting courses. And I know how much gas I'm consuming. I can plot direct, I don't want to plot waypoints.

Okay, I don't normally say something like this on APC, but there are 2 places I hope you don't wind up: on my seniority list, or in management.

North! To Alaska!

Get out of aviation.

In my flight instruction days it was a neurosurgeon. Piper Archer. Purported ran out of fuel. And did - on the left side only. When the feds showed up off airport the left tank was completely empty and the right was so full it started gushing out when they opened the cap.:eek:

With such a lackadaisical approach to aviation, perhaps your better suited to Microsoft Flight Sim. You can even hook up your iPad to it and use foreflight!
Seriously, if you want to timebuild using their aircraft, then you follow their rules. Besides, it will make you a better pilot.

The windows are the most important piece of equipment in the airplane.

Plot courses, measure distances, use the stopwatch. You never know when the iPad is going to give out on you. In less than 500 hours using the app, I have had two iPad Foreflight failures, one inflight. Always have a backup.

If you're flying VFR, pilotage and (rough) dead reckoning should always be your primary form of navigation, backed up with things like VOR, GPS, iPad, etc. You don't necessarily have to have a VFR flight plotted out on a chart with an immaculate navlog like you did when you're doing you're private, but you should be able to figure out roughly what direction, which landmarks you'll pass, how much time it'll take, and how much fuel you're gonna use BEFORE you go, in addition to being able to make rough estimations in the air.

My interpretation of your flight club's rule is you aren't required to use an actual paper chart, but you cannot solely navigate by looking at how far away you are from your magenta line on your iPad. Use the chart on your iPad to find landmarks outside.

I swear, I don't know how being honest & lacking experience can illicit such a response from an APC member on this forum. But, then again, some fellas are really impressed with themselves.

It was one thing when the OP asked for advice on it, got it, then decided he didn't agree with it, it then became something else as he was going to stick to his toys anyway ("I don't want to plot waypoints").

OnCenterline is right.

I think there may be a misunderstanding. What I meant is that I do not want to use a navlog like I'm a student pilot, plotting out MH,TC and all that. Plotting out points and getting a rough calculation is fine, but I just don't see a need in doing a Navlog, especially for a flight that is only 10nm to a nearby airport for XWind landing practice.

The school I go to requires the course be plotted on the chart, a Navlog for any flight leaving their Class D Airspace, with points every 10nm. Additionally, they require a VFR Flight plan to be filed and activated for any flight.

It's their plane... Don't like it? Go somewhere else.

As far as their concerned they don't know you from Adam, just because you have a PPL/CPL/ATP does not mean you're competent.

That's a bit over the top IMO but everyone is right it's their airplane and you should abide by their rules. Who knows could be a weird insurance thing or something, although I've never heard of that.

I bet when you rented airplanes you insisted on Hand-propping the airplane because that's they way it used to be. I say anything that increases situational awareness of a pilot should be used if available. One thing about building time towards a career as an airline pilot, is this: You violate any airspace, break a FAR and your flying career is OVER as far as airlines are concerned - something military pilots are not exposed to. Their Military flight record as far as mishaps and airspace violations, accidents etc stay with their squadron commander/or whoever keeps those files, and are not a public matter

Who said "plotting waypoints" cant be direct? Pilotage waypoints, VOR cross radials, DME from a VOR etc, etc. can't all be plotted on a direct route? You always have some sort of landmark you can still "plot waypoints" for. You are far over thinking this. Also, bring you damn Ipad, and a sectional. Then, if it so suits you AFTER making a true flight plan for you to follow along with you still have it as a back up, or even a primary. The school you are renting from probably just wants you to do all your math (including ETA, ETE etc).
But seriously, if marking a few waypoints down on a piece of paper with approximate time enroute to is an issue. I wont say, get out of aviation. But damn man, you are a pilot. Deal with it. Or get out. Because pilot life will be rough for you when you cant do things exactly how you want all the time. Trust me, things never go exactly as planned in aviation.

What am I missing? You can't plot a straight course line and fly a wind corrected heading using pilotage?

I think it's a fair question to ask if you have an instrument rating, if not, what's the big deal to practice skill that should fundamental? I'd also echo the comments about "it's their plane, don't like it go somewhere else". Either agree to the policy and abide by it, or don't and go somewhere else.

There are tons of ways to safely operate and aircraft, but If you're looking to work as a pilot at some point, get used to flying you're employer's way. You'll find it to be a very short career if you fly your way because you know best, or a policy is a hassle, or whatever. If that's truly your attitude, you can stay outta my cockpit also.

Why are you beating up on this guy. Nobody plots a course anymore - fixes are entered into the FMC and it draws a magenta line to your destination. Have you seen what Garmin has done for General Aviation?
They are making VOR's practically obsolete. Sure, it's good practice but if you want to practice something that will do you some good in the future, learn "Glass" - Boeing FMC stuff and know it inside and out because if your ultimate goal is flying for an airline, you'll need this (don't bother with Airbus glass because the bus is junk :-) ) But your point about doing what your employer tells you, like how to fly their airplanes. But give the guy a break, he wants to increase his situational awareness NOT his workload.

Oh you're a child of the magenta line (CML)... useless.

I know it's not in vogue in our society, but let's agree to disagree.

If he's bumping around in a 152 my guess is there are some basic skills he should have and it sounds like the owner of the plane thinks so too. I guess that what irks me the most; instead of voting with his wallet and not flying that plane, he turned the internet to find justification to not follow the rules that come with the rental.

I love all the gee wiz stuff, but when it all fails, and it will, you need to actually think, like how to use a VOR or NDB, old school flying will save you're ass when you're pretty glass cockpit goes dark.

I agree 100% on those NDBs... I also saved all my old 8-track tapes too.. never know when that fancy iPod might die on me lol.. I also think it's really cool how the ADF needle goes crazy & becomes useless near any kind of electrical interference or storm...

You know what the celestial navigation old timers used to say to these young kids with their fancy new direction finders right? Exactly.

Folks.. GPS.. WAAS. LAAS. RAIM. This technology is here now and the truth is it is very reliable.

Having said all that my students still learn cross country navigation via Pilotage and Dead Reckoning. But once you are proficient, no reason not to fly with the GPS if you choose to.

I might as well contribute my .02 as well...

Personally, I feel if the school requires this as part of the rental agreement than you should do as asked. If it's only a short flight than it shouldn't take you more than a few minutes and is great practice. "Use it or lose it." If it's a longer flight it still shouldn't take long and may really come in handy at some point.

By all means take your iPad along and use it for a backup and an additional source of information.

Don't become a pilot who can't figure out a holding pattern entry given at the last minute because they can't program the FMS quickly enough or a fuel burn because the GPS isn't telling you. There will be times you need to know how to fly with basic information available to you.

I still fly departures and approaches in the Airbus whenever possible with just the raw data ILS and RMI needles but then I always enjoyed being a pilot and using the skills that I learned whether it was old school or new school.

Yeah until you get to an airport that ONLY has a NDB/DME... But you don't need that ancient stuff do ya?

Or when the DME is on MEL and the FO can't figure out what a "crossing radial" is.

Relying on easy mode all the time because it's always there is not necessarily a recipe for disaster, but it is a recipe for bad airmanship.

NAV NDB OTS

It is the policy of the faa to decommission them as this inevitably happens to the rest of them. They are too expensive to fix. I guess enjoy them for the next few years?

Certain ones will not be repaired as they go out of service due to a variety of reasons. Some will be hanging around for awhile still. Eventually they will be phased out all together.

As for an airport with ONLY an NDB approach; sometimes it is allowed to use GPS 'in lieu of' certain navigational facilities. Here is an example where the LOM is OTS but a GPS waypoint could be used 'in lieu of':

So NDB's are going away slowly?

Here are a few articles on the process:

FAA Explains Instrument Approach Procedure Shutdowns | Aviation International News
So long to 216 NDB approach procedures - AOPA

As you can see from the dates on the articles, this has been an ongoing process over years and will continue so.

So it may not be on future instrument rating exams then.

Probably because the ADF offers a lot of fertile ground for exam questions. They should have all been shut down years ago. I bet if you took up a collection from airline pilots to shut down the ADF/NDB approaches at rural airports you would probably get enough to to pay for GPS app at all airports - I'm speaking of course of pre-glass airline pilots. Nobody like shooting those NDB approaches in the sim. To say the NDB is a non-precision approach is an understatement - it's an emergency proceedure

It seems there is so much room for error shooting such an approach.

If you are simply renting an airplane to build time, not undergoing instruction, it is a bit of a strange policy. Presumably you have demonstrated your pilotage skills when you took your checkride and/or checkout. So now that you are simply renting, how you navigate, be it ipad, pilotage, kentucky windage, whatever, is basically your business IMHO provided it is done competently. Essentially I would be expecting to be treated like a grownup, otherwise I would look for somewhere a little less rigid to build time.

That said, plotting courses on paper and such is good practice and will make you a better pilot. Plus it's more fun to look out the window and identify landmarks than to tap tap tap on your ipad. We have enough gee-whiz distractions in our life, enjoy the simple flying while you can.

There are countries in the world other than the US.

This. I worked with a Ukrainian pilot who a year ago was an airline FO in the Ukraine. The only approaches he had routinely flown were ILS and NDB approaches.